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Chat 11-5-09

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We had a good group tonight and a lot of good information. This is going to be the topic for the rest of this month's chat so watch the Sunporch for a post from Stephanie. This topic is going to be broken down into sub-topics since there are so many areas to discuss. Please plan on being there so we can learn from each other.




(07:33 PM) Stephanie - Home/Group defense after TSHTF, Tactics 101



(07:33 PM) Stephanie - I'm sure Luna will be glad to have you home again.



(07:33 PM) Trip - this the subject?



(07:34 PM) Trip - hope so !!



(07:34 PM) WormGuy - yes it is Trip, your thoughts?



(07:34 PM) WormGuy - yes it is Trip, your thoughts?



(07:34 PM) Trip - RUN !!!! lol



(07:35 PM) Louis1 -



(07:35 PM) Trip - What is the format? just talk about ideas?



(07:35 PM) Louis1 - Hidy!



(07:35 PM) Stephanie - And there he is , the Duck of the hour!



(07:35 PM) WormGuy - yep



(07:35 PM) Stephanie - Louis had posted a very interesting article a few days ago on this subject



(07:35 PM) Stephanie - Louis had posted a very interesting article a few days ago on this subject



(07:35 PM) WormGuy - hi Louis



(07:36 PM) Trip - Howdy Louis



(07:36 PM) Stephanie - I imagine most of you read it, very thought provoking



(07:36 PM) Stephanie - And we thought it could bear some more discussion, so here we are.



(07:36 PM) Stephanie - Welcome to all who have joined us.



(07:37 PM) Mea - thought provoking and a bit disheartening



(07:37 PM) Louis1 - Not something most in this country have real-world experience in



(07:37 PM) Louis1 - Not something most in this country have real-world experience in



(07:37 PM) WormGuy - I think one thing it pointed out is that it will take more than a few folks to protect a place



(07:38 PM) Stephanie - True Mea, but hopefully as we educate ourselves it will be an easier discussion



(07:38 PM) Louis1 - Though some of us probably had great-great grandparents who lived that life



(07:38 PM) Louis1 - I see ya hiding out there, MT3B!



(07:39 PM) mommato3boys - I am not hiding, I am reading



(07:39 PM) Louis1 - Well, one problem with survival/prepper types



(07:40 PM) Stephanie - John, I agree about the point of needing to band together, but this is a challenge for me.



(07:40 PM) mommato3boys - I guess I will be the first to say it...this is one area that we are totally unprepared and it scares me spitless



(07:40 PM) Louis1 - is that they tend to be somewhat less than trusting of others, sometimes downright paranoid



(07:40 PM) mommato3boys - Louis quit talking about me



(07:41 PM) Louis1 - I think anyone who thinks they are prepared for such a scenario is living in a fool's paradise



(07:41 PM) Louis1 - Paranoid? Not me! I KNOW for a fact THEY are out to get me!



(07:41 PM) Mea - But who can you Trust ? Count on ?



(07:42 PM) Stephanie - BUT - we can learn and increase in knowledge and skills and tools...



(07:42 PM) Louis1 - Well, one problem here is our "legacy" from the 1990's ..........



(07:42 PM) ol'momma - Wearing your tin foil hat tonight, are you, Louis?



(07:43 PM) Louis1 - Before OKC, survival groups, militias, etc. were not quite so looked down on



(07:43 PM) Louis1 - Now, when one talks about forming a "survival group", bad images come to most people's minds



(07:43 PM) Louis1 - Hmmmm.



(07:44 PM) Louis1 - I will throw out a loaded question ..........



(07:44 PM) Louis1 - Anyone here belong to a dedicated group?



(07:44 PM) Louis1 - I don't



(07:44 PM) mommato3boys - That is true Louis most people think Waco



(07:44 PM) arby - just mrs s, lol



(07:44 PM) Trip - Just what is it that each want to defend? your whole hoog? your whole farm? or build a hard defense site to fight from?



(07:44 PM) WormGuy - not me



(07:45 PM) mommato3boys - me neither



(07:45 PM) ol'momma - Here, we're up against the fact that everyone immediately thinks of the white suppremists over in Idaho if you mention "survival"



(07:45 PM) WormGuy - all of it Trip



(07:45 PM) Louis1 - Eggsacketly, ol'momma



(07:46 PM) arby - yep.



(07:46 PM) Trip - the creeps in Idaho were members of the nazis



(07:46 PM) Trip - skinheads



(07:46 PM) ol'momma - Wackos.



(07:46 PM) ol'momma - "Arian Nations" et all.



(07:47 PM) Louis1 - Mea's question - Who do you trust, how do you decide? Was a great question, any answer?



(07:47 PM) Trip - yes that be them



(07:47 PM) ol'momma - I trust my gut, and rely on it to halp me decide



(07:48 PM) Mea - especially given limited choices



(07:48 PM) ol'momma - Bunch of that lot not so far from our old town Trip. Up Browns Gulch....I can attest to the fact that they have...Issues



(07:48 PM) Louis1 - Anybody else?



(07:48 PM) Mother - I used to be more trusting than I am now but someone asked me a very important question



(07:48 PM) Louis1 - Family?



(07:49 PM) Louis1 - what question?



(07:49 PM) ol'momma - Why would I trust my family???



(07:49 PM) Mea - sometimes



(07:49 PM) ol'momma - Why would I trust my family???



(07:49 PM) Mea - sometimes



(07:49 PM) ol'momma - I trust my chosen family a lot more then the lot I was born into!



(07:49 PM) WormGuy - I have talked to a handful of "friends" to feel them out. All but one of them have been counted as I will not trust them.



(07:49 PM) Mother - I was asked if I would open my door to a crying child in my driveway if the S had already HTF. I said yes



(07:50 PM) Louis1 - What was the question, Mother?



(07:50 PM) Louis1 - OK, I hate this place's delay, lol



(07:50 PM) Mother - He said then a small red light would appear on my chest followed by a big hole



(07:50 PM) Stephanie - I read you mentioning that earlier Mother.



(07:51 PM) Mother - It has changed the whole way I think about trusting



(07:51 PM) Louis1 - Well, that could very possibly be true. Sad thought that is is.



(07:51 PM) ol'momma - they did much the same in 'Nam, didn't they



(07:51 PM) Louis1 - Or, what if the child is 10/12/14 years old?



(07:51 PM) Stephanie - Yikes, that's a scary thought!



(07:52 PM) Stephanie - I have an answer to Mea's question



(07:52 PM) Mother - It's not that I don't trust a lot of people now. I do. I have a fairly pronounced instinct for when someone is lying but trying to use that on an unseen individual that intends to kill you or take everything you have is a whole nother situation



(07:52 PM) Louis1 - Lots of people have been killed in the last hundred years by 12 year old "children"



(07:52 PM) Stephanie - First of all, start looking now, connecting now and learning the true character of folks NOW, so when push comes to shove, you already know who you can trust.



(07:52 PM) Trip - In 1993 a group met here in Helena to form a Milita group, after sitting and listening to them babble for a while I spoke up and told them that in the room there was already one snitch for the ATF and that my rule was if I hadn't knownyou from before starting the group I didn't trust you...lol...later it turned out one of the two guys who pushed to start a milita group was in fact an informent for the ATZF



(07:53 PM) ol'momma - I remember that.



(07:53 PM) arby - yep Mother. Im solitary where I am. Dont even have guns, but will fight to keep living if 'bothered' out of the ordinary and hope to meet up with my son and his wife/family after whatever event sinks us so bad I would have to go there, if I did not have a place to stay safe by that time up here. But thats only if he survived too. Most of you have spouses or family or certain friends you can and do trust. It is not that easy for me, or other solitaries like myself.



(07:53 PM) Louis1 - OK, on the subject at hand, I will make a statement now that some may find offensive, some may be directly impacted .........



(07:54 PM) ol'momma - DH was invited to join too...he let it drop like a rock and walked away



(07:55 PM) Louis1 - If the situation is as dire as the topic describes, you will not survive in a city. The cities will be death traps, if you live in one you MUST LEAVE BEFORE TOO LATE



(07:55 PM) Trip - best start leaving right now



(07:55 PM) Stephanie - In other words, don't think you're going to defend your home in town...not going to happen



(07:55 PM) arby - lol...



(07:56 PM) arby - exactly



(07:56 PM) Mea - Even in the country, no guarentees as the article pointed out.



(07:56 PM) Mother - Louis, what makes you so sure that it will be any safer in the country?



(07:56 PM) Louis1 - Or have a plan and, when "IT" happens, recognize "IT" and get up and leave .........



(07:56 PM) Louis1 - Not sure at all



(07:57 PM) Mother - And if you go back to Natzi Germany you will find a LOT of people survived in the city and a LOT in the country died



(07:57 PM) arby - right. bad stuff going on at an accelerated rate even around my sleepy corner of the country... real bad.



(07:57 PM) Louis1 - However, in a city, numbers are against you, food supplies are more limited, escape options are more limited



(07:57 PM) Trip - out in the boonies you will have a better chance, you can form defenses that can keep you informed and alive



(07:58 PM) Annarchy - So... will your bob support you long enough to get to a place that is safe? And, most of the city folk will be evacuating to the country to get away themselves..



(07:58 PM) Trip - if your a hard walk from main roads your safer



(07:58 PM) Louis1 - I think small towns are the best option, MHO



(07:58 PM) Trip - like hunting, the slobs never leave the roads



(07:58 PM) Mother - Here's a thought that came from Furfal in Argentina. People in the country were besieged by thieves who beat them to get them to tell where they were storing things. AS they loved far from neighbors there was no one to even hear their screams



(07:58 PM) ol'momma - That would depend on the resources your particular boonies supplied, wouldn't it Trip?



(07:59 PM) Louis1 - ann, I don't think the majority of people will go anywhere until is too late, just based on what I observe these days



(07:59 PM) Louis1 - Yah, I read that Mother. Is why I like the small town option



(07:59 PM) Mea - Then they will be like locusts




(07:59 PM) Annarchy - True, however, if you've chosen to bug out and found a nice place where you can survive, are you prepared for the masses exiting?



(08:00 PM) arby - only if you have supplies and someone who can help you if you become ill or injured and watch your back Trip and be able to stay warm and in some shelter in the deep winters around here. Winters are a big problem here because I could end up easily on the street, outside...... and it snowed this morning already.



(08:00 PM) Mother - That might be true Louis but when they do come it will be an outpouring and that could be devestating for us in the country



(08:00 PM) Trip - That's why I like east TX...can grow a garden year round, veryhard to move thru the wooded areas



(08:00 PM) ol'momma - I actually think the opposite is true, Louis. I forseen mass excidous and swarms of people hitting hte highway, heading for anywhere but the city



(08:00 PM) Louis1 - If you were part of an organized, supplied group, then way out in the country might be good



(08:00 PM) arby - and around here we have a new enemy as of this week, old septic tanks.



(08:00 PM) Louis1 - There are no easy answers, Mother



(08:01 PM) arby - well I hope to get there in some time if things hold together, thats where my DIL is from Trip.



(08:01 PM) Louis1 - But mass exodus don't work too well



(08:01 PM) Mother - I can tell you for sure that if there is a mushroom cloud over a city you are going to see the roads innundated



(08:01 PM) Louis1 - especially if they wait too long



(08:02 PM) Louis1 - Yep, but they will be disorganized, arguing and fighting amongst themselves



(08:02 PM) Louis1 - An exodus from a big city is not going to be an organized invasion force



(08:02 PM) Granny -



(08:02 PM) Annarchy - If there's a mushroom cloud, I'll grab my DH and we will sit on the roof top watching the show. Won't be any escape at that point for us.



(08:02 PM) Louis1 - An exodus from a big city is not going to be an organized invasion force



(08:02 PM) Granny -



(08:02 PM) Annarchy - If there's a mushroom cloud, I'll grab my DH and we will sit on the roof top watching the show. Won't be any escape at that point for us.



(08:02 PM) WormGuy - I think most people leaving the cities won't know where to go. They are use to the city life and have no clue what lies beyond they own little world.



(08:02 PM) Trip - As Louis said, a small community would be good if the people pull together



(08:03 PM) Mother - We read what the 'bad' guys would do if we try to defend our places. That article seemed to be talking about the country, not the city



(08:03 PM) Stephanie - My big question will be something you mentioned earlier Louis...knowing WHEN to skedaddle



(08:02 PM) Trip - As Louis said, a small community would be good if the people pull together



(08:03 PM) Mother - We read what the 'bad' guys would do if we try to defend our places. That article seemed to be talking about the country, not the city



(08:03 PM) Stephanie - My big question will be something you mentioned earlier Louis...knowing WHEN to skedaddle



(08:03 PM) WormGuy - Hi Granny



(08:03 PM) Stephanie - (((Granny))) (((Ann))) and anyone I missed!



(08:03 PM) Louis1 - I think you have to have more support than a single family



(08:04 PM) Louis1 - And I think you have to recognize that some possibilities can't be planned for



(08:04 PM) Louis1 - and that hiding/running are better than fighting



(08:04 PM) Louis1 - Want an example of something a survivor family can't handle?



(08:05 PM) Mother - Louis, that takes us back to the problem of being unable to hide a larger group and being able to feed and house them



(08:05 PM) Annarchy - Sure...



(08:05 PM) arby - best case, yes, Louis. It is a very helpful thing but with the way people are these days, that is very difficult to figure out because so many we know would be totally unfit to deal with things and would not pull their weight, and are dishonest and expecting someone else to help them or feed them.. hard decisions



(08:05 PM) Mea - and someone with a bigger stick could take all your stuff



(08:05 PM) arby - very true Mother.



(08:05 PM) Stephanie - all ears here...



(08:06 PM) Louis1 - OK, 50 armed looters with a little bit of organization - a survivalist family, on a farm, with 3-4 adults, kids - the odds are too much. That is gonna be unsurvivable if you let them catch you on the farm.



(08:06 PM) arby - or are into drugs and drinking and goofing off their whole lives and will steal from you too.... and they are an instant enemy when you say no, go away.....



(08:06 PM) Louis1 - Only options are RUN or HIDE



(08:07 PM) Granny - It might be helpful to start with the basics.



(08:07 PM) Mother - With fifty they will catch you anyway. They would most likely have your escape route all figured out before hand



(08:07 PM) Louis1 - So, I don't waste time thinking about how to fight off a horde



(08:07 PM) Stephanie - Good thinking Granny, so what are the basics



(08:07 PM) Louis1 - I think you need to decide beforehand:



(08:08 PM) Louis1 - When to run, when to fight, when to hide



(08:08 PM) Stephanie - So...there could be a point when we abandon ship.



(08:08 PM) arby - underground tunnels, booby traps can be helpful, tunnels to get out of a house they decide to burn down around you and the kids.



(08:08 PM) Louis1 - And to do that, you need to know what you can fight



(08:08 PM) arby - precisely Louis.



(08:08 PM) ol'momma - It seems logical to be prepared for that eventuality



(08:08 PM) Stephanie - And that is (once again) my biggest question...knowing when to leave.



(08:09 PM) Granny - Define the objective. Whethe ones goal is to protect home at all costs or survive.



(08:09 PM) Annarchy - DH is mean, he'll fight to the finish, if we are discovered, and that is "IF".



(08:09 PM) Trip - I think having a solid plan and solid fighting defenses and a no surrender no hostages like in the prisons...make them lose a lot of ppl to gain any loot



(08:09 PM) Louis1 - Steph - where you live, the moment you think there is a better than 5% chance that the B'ham hordes are coming out



(08:09 PM) ol'momma - g'night all. Have fun figuring it out. I gotta settle the munchkins



(08:10 PM) Trip - the accepted ratio is 5 attackers to each defender



(08:10 PM) arby - nite olmomma



(08:10 PM) Annarchy - Nite ol'momma



(08:10 PM) Louis1 - Granny - for me, it is keep me and mine alive



(08:10 PM) Mother - gnight Ol'momma



(08:10 PM) WormGuy - nite ol'momma



(08:11 PM) Louis1 - Trip - that is assuming trained defenders ..



(08:11 PM) Mother - So where do you get those trained defenders?



(08:11 PM) Annarchy - Trip, that's if you don't have class 3's and training



(08:11 PM) Louis1 - OK, is hard for paranoid survivalist, but I will give you a little of what we plan ......



(08:12 PM) Mother - Do you choose only those types to join your group



(08:12 PM) Granny - sorry all, my puter keeps freezing up



(08:12 PM) Trip - Louis you need to remember that unless your facing a traind unit of military the BG's won't be any better trained then your group, and for sure less disaplin



(08:13 PM) Louis1 - We live now in small town, 2 hrs. drive in peacetime from major city, lots of small communities 'twixt us and Big City, they would have to "go under" before the "horde" gets to us



(08:13 PM) Trip - I guess the problem here is that speaking for me...I have the training, I have the weapons, and I have the skills to train a force



(08:13 PM) farmgirlwannabe - Just wanted to say goodnight to everyone. I am logging out and DH is logging back in under his own.



(08:13 PM) Annarchy - Not necessarily, Mother, you want those who will pitch in, who are not afraid to do what needs to be done to achieve your goals of survival.



(08:13 PM) Louis1 - This didn't happen by chance, lol, used to live in Big City



(08:13 PM) Stephanie - Here's a thought...many people (if not most) these days, can't even abide the thought of killing an animal to eat it...much less killing a human being



(08:13 PM) Mother - I suddenly have visions of a group of trained defenders, all ready to fight to the death and no one to feed them.



(08:13 PM) Trip - making it hard to try to say this is what I will do when you can't do it ..or maybe can do it better



(08:14 PM) Mother - gnight FG



(08:14 PM) Louis1 - We plan to fight small groups, individuals, unorganized looters



(08:14 PM) Annarchy -



(08:14 PM) Louis1 - But when I say fight, I don't mean pitched battles



(08:15 PM) Stephanie - People (in general) just think of DIPLOMACY, the ability to REASON...etc.. What many don't understand, is you can not reason with an unreasonable person.



(08:15 PM) Trip - nor do I...



(08:15 PM) Louis1 - Mother - survivors must be great multitaskers!



(08:15 PM) Granny - i'll just post a few links then. (stupid computer argh!!) http://www.aircav.com/survival/asch21/asch21p01.html#s1



(08:16 PM) Trip - that's what I meant about no Hostages...



(08:16 PM) Louis1 - Right, Trip ............... Be prepared to fight, hit the "enemy" hard, discourage them



(08:16 PM) Trip - if you get taken , nobody lays down their guns



(08:16 PM) Annarchy - Exactly Louis, you assess each situation and apply the proper force to overcome



(08:16 PM) Louis1 - Make yourself a nasty target to digest



(08:17 PM) The MacKinnon - Hello



(08:17 PM) Louis1 - If, as Trip says, the looters are disorganized, they are going to take the easy targets first



(08:17 PM) Trip - in the movies the BG takes a hostage and the cops all lay down their guns....not happening



(08:17 PM) Stephanie - Thanks for the link Granny! Hi Alexis!!



(08:17 PM) Louis1 - Hello, The Mackinnon



(08:18 PM) WormGuy - hi MacK



(08:18 PM) Mother - hello Mackinnon



(08:18 PM) Louis1 - And, train everyone to help defend if the need arises



(08:18 PM) The MacKinnon - So what's the plan, Stan...?



(08:18 PM) mommato3boys - sorry about that friends are calling to check on ds#1 they are all worried that he is at ft. hood



(08:18 PM) Mother - I read that article. If the gang is even remotely organized you are not going to take them out all that easily without exposing yourself



(08:19 PM) The MacKinnon - That Ft Hood situation is going to be interesting



(08:19 PM) Louis1 - MHO, a 10 year old needs to be taught the basics of firearms, self defense .......... some, I know, disagree



(08:19 PM) mudhound72 -



(08:19 PM) Louis1 - You have to have lookouts



(08:19 PM) Stephanie - Hi mudhound, glad to see you!



(08:20 PM) Louis1 - You have to have agreed upon signals/communications



(08:20 PM) Granny - http://www.scribd.com/doc/20457626/Retreat-Security



(08:20 PM) Mother - We hav a seven year old gs who can shoot a 22 but I can't see him shooting a person as he's been conditioned NOT to fire at a person or even an animal unless he's hunting



(08:20 PM) Stephanie - I think 10 years old is a fair age



(08:20 PM) The MacKinnon - Anyone here familiar with Apple Seed activities?



(08:20 PM) Trip - somebody mentioned full autos...NO!! wastes too much ammo...in the Nam the round count was 55000 rounds per dead VC /NVA



(08:20 PM) Louis1 - You have to apportion duties equally, everyone does what they are capable of



(08:20 PM) Louis1 - Yes to Apple Seed



(08:21 PM) Stephanie - No, Alexis, never heard of it



(08:21 PM) mommato3boys - I read some of the stuff that Louis posted and I printed and am making notes on how to stage defense areas



(08:21 PM) Louis1 - You can't put some people working all day, others lazing around with a gun



(08:21 PM) The MacKinnon - Let me find a link Stephanie



(08:22 PM) Louis1 - You need to be able to trust the late pre-teens and early teen kids enough to let them act as lookouts



(08:22 PM) The MacKinnon - http://www.appleseedinfo.org/ Good site and info



(08:22 PM) Annarchy - Hi MacK & Mudhound



(08:22 PM) Trip - Louis , there are those who can grow a garden wonderfully but would be worthless on guard duty if it came to shooting



(08:22 PM) WormGuy - hi Mudhound



(08:22 PM) Trip - me? I'd be worthless in the garden



(08:23 PM) Louis1 - Trip - is that acceptable?



(08:23 PM) mommato3boys - Alexis is that the one that talks about being more than a gun owner?



(08:23 PM) Trip - what Louis?



(08:23 PM) The MacKinnon - You know, even if someone weren't really psychologically or physically able to shoot a gun, they could still learn basic (and advanced) skills in surveillance and scouting - awareness (hyper)



(08:24 PM) Louis1 - Is it acceptable to be able to garden but not to defend?



(08:24 PM) The MacKinnon - Mt3B, yes. One should become a 'rifleman' and competent with a weapon



(08:24 PM) mommato3boys - Trip the question is would Trip trust anyone to watch his back while he worked in the garden



(08:24 PM) mommato3boys - http://www.appleseedinfo.org/



(08:24 PM) Louis1 - Yep, The Mackinnon, like for lookouts



(08:24 PM) Trip - to me it is....there are always those who are best doing what they are best at...



(08:25 PM) Louis1 - But what if it is essential that they pick up a handgun and shoot?



(08:26 PM) Trip - Louis I see it as some would be better growing food then patroling the area



(08:26 PM) Louis1 - Not everyone has to do everything all the time, but everyone has to do some things maybe sometimes



(08:26 PM) The MacKinnon - And in the SB entry by Jeff T on MZBs, you have to be aware of your surroundings (good idea anyway) so you can react/respond properly



(08:26 PM) mommato3boys - You have a point if we were dependent on hubby growing food well would would not have anything but weeds. He is a better hunter than me but I fish better but can't clean a fish worth diddle



(08:26 PM) Trip - in the military some work in supply, some head into the bush and bring the fight to the BGS



(08:26 PM) Mother - is it acceptable to be able to defend but not garden



(08:27 PM) Louis1 - Trip - I don't mean that, I mean what about when a group of looters is coming up the driveway - do you think then it is acceptable not to be a "defender"



(08:27 PM) The MacKinnon - Women and those who garden have to be aware and prepared,which may include shooting someone, or covering themselves to get to safety



(08:27 PM) Louis1 - No, Mother, not IMO



(08:27 PM) WormGuy - I agree with Louis



(08:28 PM) Trip - Louis, NO!! everybody can be a defensive shooter...but maybe not good on patrol



(08:28 PM) Louis1 - You have limited number of people ............. someone must ALWAYS be awake and on watch, someone must prepare food, care for disabled, build fires, feed animals, ALL THE TIME, someone must be ready to fight all time



(08:28 PM) The MacKinnon - We all have to learn to garden and defend, to make basic repairs and have some really basic skill sets



(08:28 PM) arby - me too, but sometimes you may have someone that will not use a gun, period. THey will do well in other areas though.



(08:29 PM) Mother - exactly Louis. For a group to be effective everyone should required to hve a working knowledge of every job



(08:29 PM) The MacKinnon - I don't think in a real TEOTWAKI situation you can afford exclusivity of tasks



(08:29 PM) Annarchy - We were taught that in the early 60's to defend ourselves, due to poachers on our land. Little girls were not safe outside, to us it was normal



(08:29 PM) WormGuy - those who will not defend must be defended



(08:30 PM) Louis1 - What is the absolute minimum you can get away with to be able to have someone awake, all time if you plan on defending your home/street/apt. or whatever against a small band of looters?



(08:30 PM) Mother - What would you all consider an adequate number of people for a survival group



(08:30 PM) Stephanie - good point John, well said



(08:30 PM) mommato3boys - Sorry Wormy but I hate to say this but I think that those that will not defend won't last long



(08:30 PM) Louis1 - WG - are you saying it is alright for someone to say they "won't defend"?



(08:31 PM) Stephanie - Thanks for the link Alexis and I agree about not being able to afford exclusivity of tasks



(08:31 PM) arby - well even in the military they have constant training and you would want people brought up to speed to be as well rounded as possible but they could be a doctor and not want to pick up a gun..... but as a doctor they are valuable to you..... you need to work around it, in some way ..... teach them evasion and how to warn the others and such in a tough situation and make them pack a gun anyway and know how to use it. they probably will use it



(08:32 PM) arby - when it comes down to it.



(08:32 PM) Stephanie - I was reading John's statement to mean that if someone isn't contributing to the defense...they put additional weight on the others who are doing so.



(08:32 PM) Louis1 - Mother - If you do not have community support, I would estimate 6-10 and that will mean some exhausted people



(08:32 PM) WormGuy - no Louis, but if the shtf and someone then decides they can't do it, then they will have to be defended also instead of being a defender



(08:32 PM) Louis1 - 6-10 fairly able-bodied



(08:32 PM) The MacKinnon - Exactly Arby. If someone refuses to learn to use a gun, they put others in danger



(08:33 PM) mommato3boys - Mother I think probably a good number would be a minimum of 15-18 people, to cover 24/7 most military teams 5-6 people and each squad is 3-4 teams.



(08:33 PM) mommato3boys - brb ds#1 from Ft. Sill is on the phone



(08:34 PM) Mother - It is true that everyone will have their own strong points and each group needs all sorts of tasks done to survive but if you lose one of those people someone is going to have to fill that nitch



(08:34 PM) The MacKinnon - Hey gotta go. Let me know how this turns out.



(08:34 PM) Louis1 - 6 people = 2 on watch at a time, 8 hours for each



(08:34 PM) WormGuy - for me it would depend on the size of the area being defended. The larger the area, the more people needed



(08:34 PM) Louis1 - Nite!



(08:34 PM) Mother - Night MK



(08:35 PM) WormGuy - nite MK



(08:35 PM) Louis1 - 2 asleep every hour of the day, so 2 on watch and 2 available to do everythingelse, including taking care of those who can't care for themselves



(08:35 PM) arby - its nice to say you want 18 ppl but do you have land enough to support them all, and it already set up , do you have supplies and food for that many? This is great in theory but what is YOUR personal reality , what are the things you can do to start building those things, the land, structures tools and equipment and supplies and food and all the other logistics..... most folks dont have those resources unless they have been doing this lifestyle for 20 yrs or more .



(08:36 PM) Mother - When I wrote Illinois story I spent a lot of time with those numbers, using my family and neighbors as a guide. You cannot possibly get everything done that needs done with even 8 or 10 people, even 15 is not enough



(08:37 PM) Louis1 - That is what keeps me pushing the idea, if at all possible, of small towns / community efforts / having to trust others to some extent



(08:37 PM) Mother - Yet feeding and houseing them becomes a problem. as arby says. Then there is the problem of the bigger you get the more you draw attention to the fact that you must have something to defend



(08:37 PM) Annarchy - Night MK



(08:38 PM) arby - yep Mother.



(08:38 PM) Louis1 - Go back to our country's pioneering days - sometimes the single families survived, sometimes didn't



(08:39 PM) Louis1 - A lot depended on what they were up against



(08:39 PM) Mother - I agree with the small town idea but it's so rare that a town has a defensible setting. then there is always the problem of someone in the town wanting to call all the shots cause they were the MAYOR or something before the SHTF



(08:39 PM) Annarchy - Hmmm.... 6+ people, I'm done for. Just DH & I.



(08:39 PM) Louis1 - A small raiding party? Sometimes survivable



(08:40 PM) Mother - You also have the same problem with a town you do with a smaller survival group. How do you feed them. Especially if they are cut off from outside sources. We are so used to having stuff brought TO us



(08:40 PM) Louis1 - Ann - 2 people means be ready to run/hide, be extraordinarily vicous when attacked to discourage the enemy



(08:41 PM) Trip - I'm having trouble trying to marsheling my thoughts in this rolling format...I think I will try writing my thoughts out and post them as I see it..



(08:41 PM) Mother - AS far as I can see the only way we can survive is if WE become the attackers, living off the fortune of others. At least it sounds like they have the advantages



(08:41 PM) Louis1 - Mother - depends on time of year, available food from gardens / farms, lots of factors.



(08:41 PM) Louis1 - Attackers, MHO, will not last long



(08:41 PM) WormGuy - that's what I am thinking Mother



(08:42 PM) Mother - even if there are gardens, do you think that the people who grew them are just going to give them to the town if they have family to feed?



(08:42 PM) Stephanie - Trip, John will post this chat in it's entirety and you can post on that thread or start a thread of your own



(08:42 PM) Louis1 - Yes, the group of looters wins against the first group most likely, but some die



(08:43 PM) Louis1 - Mother - know the people in the town / community. Yes, at first they will. And, if in their interest, will continue.



(08:43 PM) Louis1 - Is why is wise to have something to contribute



(08:43 PM) Mother - The looters/attackers have the ability to move around as they are on the offence instead of barracading themselves in for defence



(08:43 PM) mudhound72 - What are some things that can be done to a house in a small town to make it more defendable?



(08:44 PM) arby - I agree with that Louis, but what little i have I dont want others necessarily knowing I have it because there will be someone in whatever method they choose, can come in and take it all. I cannot afford to go out in my community and hope that in a year Ive got enough good folks I can truly trust because most are not trustworthy or they will talk or word gets out and while they may have a nice home to defend, Ive only got what I possess and its just enough maybe to tide me over or give me the things I need to make that 2100 mile walk out.... if they get it... I have nothing and I die from starving and anything else nature can throw at me . If I start networking at all, it would only be for temporary haven.... in a few years I hope to be able to move deliberately south anyway... so I will have to be a lone wolf for the long run unless something falls into my lap andwith the luck Ive had so far, it ain't happening! There are so many folks around here losing their homes now, they are leaving and noone is looking to buy to stay put here. the ones that stay that I could maybe trust are so far out in the boonies, I know Im not even a possibility to them. If you have a familiar/ friend/family network sort of going, build on it, but we have from 1, 3 to 10 yrs before something truly disastrous occurs in some fashion, I feel.....time is short.



(08:44 PM) Mother - Besides, that, there are always some who would take the dead looters place willingly



(08:44 PM) Louis1 - Back to other thing - by the time the looters / attackers loot 3, 4, 5 homes/groups, they are going to be much more cautious, much fewer in numbers



(08:44 PM) arby - what is it you can get together in much shorter notice, considering what you individually have now.



(08:44 PM) Stephanie - I'm going to have to finish reading this tomorrow, must help dh finish packing for out of town trip tomorrow!



(08:45 PM) Louis1 - Mother, define looters



(08:45 PM) Trip - As for my thoughts, it will be very hard to survive in a place like Montana...sure you can, but not easy, I like the idea of being in a warm place where one can garden all year , yes all the BGs will head to warmer country too but I can build a survival stronghold there easier then here



(08:45 PM) arby - Im thinking a hidey hole in the woods is my option if I had to remain in the area.... its going to take all I got to do something like that too.



(08:45 PM) Trip - As for my thoughts, it will be very hard to survive in a place like Montana...sure you can, but not easy, I like the idea of being in a warm place where one can garden all year , yes all the BGs will head to warmer country too but I can build a survival stronghold there easier then here



(08:45 PM) arby - Im thinking a hidey hole in the woods is my option if I had to remain in the area.... its going to take all I got to do something like that too.



(08:45 PM) WormGuy - nite Stephanie



(08:45 PM) Louis1 - They have to keep moving, carry food, prepare food, find place to sleep, fuel for vehicles, ammo, trust?!?!?!? each other



(08:46 PM) Mother - People who want to profit from others hard work



(08:46 PM) Trip - night Steph



(08:46 PM) Louis1 - The logistics to keep a force of looters in the field any length of time is mind boggling



(08:46 PM) Mother - nite steph



(08:46 PM) Trip - I'm bailing too...need to get packing to leave Sunday



(08:46 PM) mudhound72 - Night Steph



(08:46 PM) Trip - night all



(08:46 PM) Louis1 - MHO - you have to survive a short time, then much of the "looter" issue takes care of self



(08:47 PM) Louis1 - nite!



(08:47 PM) Mother - that might be but the logistics of trying to keep a defensible number fed and housed and still on watch is equally difficult



(08:47 PM) WormGuy - good question Mudhound



(08:47 PM) WormGuy - nite Trip



(08:47 PM) Louis1 - Anybody got answers for mudhound's question?



(08:47 PM) Mother - nite



(08:47 PM) Annarchy - Nite Steph



(08:47 PM) Annarchy - Nite Trip



(08:48 PM) Annarchy - thinking....



(08:48 PM) Mother - WE had some really good posts in urban survival about that subject Mudhound



(08:48 PM) Louis1 - What are some things that can be done to a house in a small town to make it more defendable?



(08:48 PM) Mother - I think Cookiejar started some of them



(08:48 PM) Louis1 - Clear area around the house, no cover or concealment



(08:48 PM) Annarchy - Plywood cutouts to fit the windows, dark curtains



(08:49 PM) Annarchy - inside the house, so it's not as noticable.



(08:49 PM) Louis1 - Block most windows so no clear view of where exactly you are inside



(08:49 PM) Louis1 - Block most windows so no clear view of where exactly you are inside



(08:49 PM) WormGuy - sandbags for the walls in at least one room



(08:50 PM) Mother - One thing that really hounds me is the fact that no matter what we do to the house to make it more defensible, it ends up being more a prison for us inside



(08:50 PM) Louis1 - Sandbags or an equivalent inside some, at least, of the interior walls, 4 feet high or so



(08:50 PM) mudhound72 - In the middle of remodeling the house and looking to buld in a few items to make survivle more possible.



(08:50 PM) mommato3boys - I know mother it is hard to defend and not cut off your escape



(08:51 PM) Louis1 - Blast! can't keep ahead of ya'lls posts



(08:51 PM) Louis1 - SAFE ROOM



(08:51 PM) Mother - Boarding windows relegates a person to dark dismal surroundings that add to the stress of constant vigilance



(08:51 PM) Louis1 - Some place in house that is relatively impenetrable to small arms fire



(08:51 PM) Annarchy - Mother, you are right.



(08:51 PM) WormGuy - to me that's what makes it more important to get out of a city Mother



(08:51 PM) mommato3boys - I hope this is going to be archived somewhere so that I can go back and read it since I have had phones calls to deal with



(08:52 PM) arby - I need to go too. Take care.



(08:52 PM) Louis1 - Maybe is dark and dismal, but people survived in such for centuries, I find preferable to alternative!



(08:52 PM) Annarchy - Good dead bolt system on the doors, and solid doors instead of glass/hollow/aluminum.



(08:52 PM) WormGuy - I'll post this Mt3B



(08:52 PM) Louis1 - Maybe is dark and dismal, but people survived in such for centuries, I find preferable to alternative!



(08:52 PM) Annarchy - Good dead bolt system on the doors, and solid doors instead of glass/hollow/aluminum.



(08:52 PM) Mother - When I hear people say that survival in the country is going to be better than survival in the city, I have my doubts. And I live a thousand feet off the road in the country



(08:52 PM) Annarchy - Night arby, and Mt3b



(08:53 PM) WormGuy - nite Arby



(08:53 PM) Mother - nite arby



(08:53 PM) mommato3boys - Wormy it will have to be far enough out that there will be more between you and the city to keep people away longer. I am not happy where we are we are half way between Raleigh and Ft. Bragg we are sitting ducks here



(08:53 PM) Louis1 - Position fire ext's, small arms, ammo, water, energy food in several locations in case is not safe to move around



(08:53 PM) mommato3boys - nite arby



(08:54 PM) Mother - I guess it would depend on the hope you have of eventually having a life outside the walls of the safe room



(08:54 PM) mudhound72 - nite arby



(08:54 PM) WormGuy - that's what I'm aiming for Mt3B



(08:54 PM) Louis1 - Mother - most cities have 3 days supply of food on hand. That is all I need to know on that one.



(08:54 PM) WormGuy - hi Katz



(08:54 PM) Louis1 - The whole idea is to be able to survive a short, sharp survivable attack.



(08:54 PM) mommato3boys - Louis they don't have 3 days supply



(08:55 PM) Katz25 - Hi Everybody



(08:55 PM) Mother - I'm told that long island groceries have only 24 hours on hand



(08:55 PM) Louis1 - Nobody says live forever in an unlighted cavern, but have one available for when it is needed.



(08:56 PM) Louis1 - 3 days is usually used for everything in homes, stores, delivery vehicles, restaraunts - the total



(08:56 PM) mommato3boys - ds#2 now works at WM at night stocking he said they get trucks every other day of food and they have discussed at work what to do if there is an emergency...he said they have less than 2 days on hand



(08:56 PM) Louis1 - And, before they leave, somebody is gonna fight somebody ele for what is there



(08:57 PM) Mother - I do happen to agree with you Loius, trying to play devils advocate here



(08:57 PM) Louis1 -



(08:57 PM) Louis1 -



(08:57 PM) WormGuy - your asking the right questions Mother



(08:57 PM) Louis1 -



(08:58 PM) mudhound72 - A few things I have thought of is have enough fence on hand to fence off a parameter, some kind of a way so stop bullets from comming threw the walls, safe room, milti ways to secure the doors .



(08:58 PM) mommato3boys - Oh Mother you should not have told him that



(08:58 PM) Mother - I'm not sure there is any one answer except that if a person really studies on it they can be prepared to survive in the city as well as the country, especially if neighborhoods would prepared ahead



(08:58 PM) Annarchy - Hi Katz



(08:58 PM) Louis1 - Fence .......... perimeter. Good thought, just make sure can see through it



(08:59 PM) mommato3boys - mudhound that is covered in the links & stuff that Louis posted in his tread.



(08:59 PM) Louis1 - concertina type fencing, excellent thought!!



(08:59 PM) mommato3boys - one even suggest putting sand out so you can tell if people are walking though that area



(09:00 PM) Louis1 - Also, since some of us paranoid survivalist types tend to trust each other more than neighbors ........................... plans to meet up, get together, etc. if things start to go bad are a good thing ..........



(09:01 PM) mommato3boys - breaking news....the shooter at Ft. Hood is still alive



(09:01 PM) Katz25 - I thought they killed him



(09:01 PM) Louis1 - Maybe you don't have anyone close you trust, what about online persons, not too far away? Ever met an online person in person?



(09:01 PM) Mother - I don't know how you can help but to be paranoid if your are going to be ready ahead of time



(09:01 PM) Louis1 - heard that MT3B



(09:01 PM) WormGuy - we live in a society that people just don't trust their neighbors anymore, I know I don't. I believe it would be impossible to get a neighborhood to band together



(09:01 PM) Annarchy - really? ---.....hang him....



(09:02 PM) mommato3boys - That is because most of us don't know our neighbors



(09:02 PM) WormGuy - ahem...I have met Louis



(09:02 PM) Annarchy - most of our neighbors are over 80 yo, not much help there, lol



(09:03 PM) Katz25 - I live in a small town on 15 acres, but I think if things were bad, I don't know if neighbors would stick together...I think not



(09:03 PM) Mother - WE have a lot of family her. We have had family meetings about this very thing, survival as a whole but e are just far enough apart to make it scary to get to each other.



(09:03 PM) WormGuy - and his evil daughter



(09:03 PM) Katz25 - I live in a small town on 15 acres, but I think if things were bad, I don't know if neighbors would stick together...I think not



(09:03 PM) Mother - WE have a lot of family her. We have had family meetings about this very thing, survival as a whole but e are just far enough apart to make it scary to get to each other.



(09:03 PM) WormGuy - and his evil daughter



(09:03 PM) Katz25 - I do know my neighbors



(09:03 PM) Katz25 - I don't think any of my neighbors believe anything will ever happen



(09:03 PM) mommato3boys - do you trust them?



(09:04 PM) Louis1 - wG, you tell them how sweet, kind, nice I am in person - they don't believe me!



(09:04 PM) Katz25 - Right now I do, but if something really bad happened I don't know if I would, that's bad to say isn't it



(09:04 PM) mudhound72 - I know my neighbors beside the new one about to move in



(09:04 PM) WormGuy - I wonder why Louis?



(09:04 PM) Mother - One of my neighbors is my DD. I don't even know the others though most have guns as we hear them hunting or target practicing as they hear us



(09:04 PM) Katz25 - How would you know who you could trust or not



(09:05 PM) Louis1 - Similar sit to other's, some family close, other family/friends within a relativel short, in good conditions, trip



(09:05 PM) Louis1 - to "Mother's", not "others"



(09:05 PM) Annarchy - Time for me to go, and yes Trip, class 3's really are a waste of good ammo.



(09:06 PM) WormGuy - anybody who would walk around B'ham with an AK on their shoulder is okay by me



(09:06 PM) Mother - I happen to believe you are a dear Louis (still playing devils advocate here she says innocently)



(09:06 PM) Katz25 - I have no family close



(09:07 PM) WormGuy - nite Annarchy



(09:07 PM) Katz25 - Gotta go...PBR is on and I can't miss that!!



(09:07 PM) WormGuy - nite Katz



(09:08 PM) Louis1 - nite, all



(09:08 PM) Stephanie -



(09:08 PM) Stephanie - Ran back to say something real quick



(09:08 PM) mommato3boys - what is PBR?



(09:08 PM) Mother - nite ann



(09:08 PM) Louis1 - So, are we wrapping up for the nite?



(09:08 PM) WormGuy - welcome back Stephanie



(09:08 PM) Stephanie - I think this is such a good subject I'd like to suggest



(09:08 PM) Stephanie - that we continue it next time and adjust our schedule



(09:09 PM) Stephanie - As a matter of fact it could be the topic for this month



(09:09 PM) Mother - You have the floor Stephanie



(09:09 PM) WormGuy -



(09:09 PM) Stephanie - I really think there is a lot more ground to cover



(09:09 PM) Louis1 - If so, need to limit the topic, tonite rambled



(09:09 PM) WormGuy - works for me Stephanie



(09:09 PM) Louis1 - Be very specific on the sub-topic would be my suggestion



(09:09 PM) Mother - I agree as I too have to get off here. Good suggestion



(09:09 PM) Stephanie - Just a thought and wanted to get your opinions



(09:10 PM) mommato3boys - Louis I vote you come up with agendas...like fences one night...on site bunkers another night...etc



(09:10 PM) Stephanie - Okay...if it's okay, then I'll adjust the schedule that I posted and we'll do the other topics next month!



(09:10 PM) Stephanie - Okay...if it's okay, then I'll adjust the schedule that I posted and we'll do the other topics next month!



(09:10 PM) WormGuy - I agree Mt3B



(09:10 PM) Stephanie - That's great if you'll tell me the more specific topics, I'll post them Louis!



(09:11 PM) Louis1 - Nope, not me, lol



(09:11 PM) mudhound72 - Lets do it



(09:11 PM) Mother - I'd like to discuss hiding out



(09:11 PM) mommato3boys - All in favor of Louis doing the agendas say I



(09:11 PM) Louis1 - Start thread, everybody post thoughts, will pick one before next week!



(09:11 PM) WormGuy - now would be good Louis so we can get more folks in the conversation



(09:12 PM) Louis1 - BTW, I will be out of town next week



(09:12 PM) mommato3boys - I think the I's have it Louis sorry your stuck



(09:12 PM) Mother - perhaps hiding on the run? How to not be noticed



(09:12 PM) mudhound72 - I



(09:12 PM) Stephanie - mommato3boys, this chat was all his idea to start with



(09:12 PM) Stephanie - I'm just his secretary



(09:12 PM) Stephanie - He is the Chief Chat Duck



(09:12 PM) Louis1 - So Stephanie posts thread of suggested subtopics



(09:12 PM) mommato3boys - see Louis this is your idea to start with LOL



(09:13 PM) Stephanie - So, he's kind of being voted in to an office he already holds



(09:13 PM) Stephanie - Yes sir, Mr. Duck!



(09:13 PM) Louis1 - Reposting:


BTW, I will be out of town next week



(09:13 PM) Louis1 - Gets me outa that one!



(09:13 PM) Stephanie - I've got to get back to packing, but just wanted to suggest a continuation.



(09:13 PM) mommato3boys - Yep that sounds about right...So where will this be archived so I can read what I missed



(09:14 PM) Stephanie - I won't be here next week either as I already told you



(09:14 PM) Stephanie - So, John??



(09:14 PM) WormGuy - in the Chat Archives Mt3B



(09:14 PM) snapshotmiki - Hi all! Late but here!



(09:14 PM) Stephanie - John, could you handle the continuation next week?



(09:15 PM) Mother - I'm off to a shower. I'll try to be here next week cause this subject is interesting and helpful...NIght all



(09:15 PM) Stephanie - Hi Mik, we're just discussing what next weeks topic will be



(09:15 PM) WormGuy - GULP!!



(09:15 PM) WormGuy - you owe me Louis



(09:15 PM) Louis1 - So, continue next week, Steph posts thread, we or anyone else throws out ideas for subtopic related to this one, one will be picked and communicated to all by WormGuy and Mother who will lead chat next week. That about cover it?



(09:15 PM) WormGuy - BIG TIME!!



(09:15 PM) Stephanie - I've got to scoot too, Louis and John, we'll chat ! Hugs to all!



(09:16 PM) snapshotmiki - Well, maybe I'll just start reading. I'll be working next week, just got off early tonight.



(09:16 PM) Stephanie - Sounds great Louis



(09:16 PM) Louis1 -



(09:16 PM) snapshotmiki - Night Steph. Sweet dreams!



(09:16 PM) Stephanie - I'll start that thread later this evening! Great topic!



(09:17 PM) WormGuy - okay, I'll post this now








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