Mother

We are almost ready here as well. Still have to get one driver out of bed though I suspect that he will be awake as soon as his SO starts driving (she's not so good at it yet LOL) Like AH I have last night's cream hanging on the side of the wagon and will have fresh buttermilk biscuits for tonight slathered with rich creamy butter (got to love those jerseys). All the animals are milked and fed. We also have a lot of milk what with the cows and goats both. I'll let it sour naturally today and try to set it tonight to make cottage cheese or just a vinegar type cheese. I still have some milk left from this morning if anyone want's some before we leave, otherwise the little pigs are going to get it..... Breakfast was easy as I brought oatmeal to a boil last night, added dried fruit and some nuts and put it in the insulated cooker. It was ready to eat first thing this morning. I could have done the same thing by putting it in a Dutch Oven and burying it near the fire last night to slow cook but this is a lot easier to clean up from as the pans are Stainless Steel. While I cleaned up from the meal Mom made biscuit sandwhiches of left over meat for our noon meal. We made coffee and put it in a big thermos for on the trail, have cool water in a big crockery water cooler/dispenser for easy access on the road (stays cool in there a long time too). DH and the rest of the family took care of the animals and hitching up chores and we're ready to roll. I have to tell you though, I'm not sure my hands are going to hold up to holding those horses in today. I already have blisters despite the leather gloves I was wearing and my arm muscles are beaten. Phew!!! Hopefully they will be easier today now that I've had such great help with adjusting the harness. We didn't have it right and I'm glad we found out the first day out instead of waiting until they were raw before doing something about it. Please people, keep an eye on your animals, especially their feet and your OWN feet as well. Ten miles today? Lots more miles than it sound like if you have to walk them. I'm glad we're taking it easy these first few days but I may still have to have DH or one of the others drive today. Okay, laggard is NOW out of bed, thanks to some pranks by his sister and BIL, ohhhh and his MOM too. Seems they found the Big wind up alarm clock he had managed to hide.....That thing is almost as loud as Michaels triangle and a LOT more jarring. Did you all hear it?

I'm awake. Mom and I have been working on breakfast for almost an hour already. She's an early riser too. I am MOST of the time. Yawn,,,,could go back to sleep about now though Bed wasn't as bad as I expected last night though I worry about Mom on that seat. She SAID it was fine. Best get cracking if we're to be ready to go in an hour and a half. We have a couple of laggers still in bed yet. Hope they get used to this early rising soon. (Michael, want to move a bit closer to our number three wagon with that triangle for a few mornings? ) Hey, anyone know what the weather is supposed to be?

Yesterday was our family halloween party/meeting and we finalized all that were going along. DS will go after all and will be driving one of the wagons DD and her DH and youngest son will have one wagon Her two grown children with their DH and SO will each have a wagon DH and I will have our horse drawn camper wagon Youngest son will be waiting to get a train together with DDIL's family and will come later as they are able. We will be praying for them. They will be here today to see us off. That will be extremely difficult to say goodbye. Had a final chat with DS in Thailand. Bitter sweet. Might be the last time we speak to him. My 88 year old Mom is coming along with us though instead of waiting for my brother and his family to get a train together to follow. DB's family may even join DS's train for safety sake. I could not fathom saying goodbye to my Mom and am grateful she decided to chance it despite her advanced age. She has medications enough for almost a year as she's been saving them up. She just had her pacemaker replaced so should be good to go. We need her. Her wealth of knowledge and experience is invaluable as is her wonderful faith and courage and ability to encourage others. YEAH!!! Yesterday was spent in last minute packing and as DGS and DGD had less to bring along besides personal clothes and items, weapons and ammo, camping supplies, and a few momentos and household items we used the extra space to load several items. First among them was my wonderful Home Comfort cook stove, dismantled and in perfect repair. We also managed to get hold of a second, larger solar charging system by barter and bought several new batteries, extra lights and etc. We added several small wood stoves, dismantled and packed carefully and a nice small tent stove. Also refractory cement for stove repairs and fireproof rope seals for the air tight ones. WE could have sold these stoves for extra money but am glad we kept them. They would have gone to the DS if we hadn't taken them along. Like some of you, we opted to include some modern cooking equipment with a multi-fuel camp stove and lantern. At the last minute we opted for throwing in a couple of good chain saw's and a 100 gallon (eight hundred pounds full no less plus weight of tank, Gulp) gasoline tank filled and with stabilizer added. We felt the chain saws would come in handy for getting cabins and etc built faster for everyone. After the gas is gone the tank can be used for something else. Just hope we don't lose it on the mountain or our location may be given away BIG time. We added items as we thought of them but constantly were aware of the weight of an item. Like CGA we opted for oil lanterns and lamps but we are carrying numerous small containers of lamp oil as well as about twenty gallon of kerosene. Carrying the fuel scares me and I'd rather rely on non fuel items but I must think of the comfort of others at least until they get used to more primative ways. We decided to outfit the camper wagon as a moving bedroom/kitchen/bathroom for our family with the modern cooking equipment installed there. The front seat (you can see it in one picture) is a bench seat from a van. My mom is very short so will sleep there while we make a bed on all that is stored in there. The portable suitcase potty will be in there with closeable curtains around it as needed. Two more similar portables are placed in other wagons as well in case of need and for after we arrive. We have also opted to take two small 12 volt refrigerators with their own small solar chargers and batteries. They only hold 2.5 CF each but contain what is left of our frozen meat for use on the trail for a short distance. That wagon is loaded fairly heavy but the horses we got to pull it are big and strong work horses. A lot of last minute running around was done yesterday and from what we see it's getting worse out there. At last, though, we are ready to roll. Will see you tonight. Stay safe everyone!

"Mother? Or anyone else good at weight calculation? Where does that put us in our weight limits then?" I beleive we are still at the same juncture of trying to determine what and for how long our TEAMS can pull a given weight. The extra teams gives us switch offs but it also means more livestock to try to care for on the trail. As I'm not an expert in teams, only knowledgable in the daily life of the pioneers, I can only guess. We are using the larger Conestoga types wagon made from lighter more durable materials. We are also not going as far nor as long as the original pioneers. A lot of our stuff is light weight as well but we are also bringing along items our forefathers wouldn't consider bringing like fencing, solar equipment, bicycles, modern inventions and tools, a lot more feed, and ect that will add to the load. The mountain pass before the valley might be a problem but if we can make it that far we can most likely send a part back for what we might have to abandon to get over it. We wouldn't want to take a chance of others seeing the extra's though and guessing where we were (though we will most likely have to have some sort of code to leave somewhere for those who are joining us later) I believe we could get by with a weight somewhere between the 12,000 and the 5,000 pounds that was normal for the pioneer. Let's say roughly 8 to 10 thousand pounds and anything over that is taking your chances. Less so for anyone bringing a small wagon along of course, like my horse drawn "camper". Now a couple of other worries that has come to me. If we are going to be near populated areas in the first two weeks and farms and/or ranches for severl more, how will we explain our 'train' and all the livestock we are moving, and in fact, how are we grazing that number of animals so they stay fit? If things are as bad all over as they are here I can see a constant vigil so we don't lose a large number of animals each night or even the wagons being attacked. This would be a good subject for our first trail meeting. Security on the trail. DH put both of our come-alongs into seperate wagons along with towing staps and cables. Hopefully someone else will put some in also as we might need them more than we think if we hit rain, especially after we leave the populated areas. Every time we add something new though I have to refigure the weight. I'm amazed to find that just one of those heavy duty come-alongs weighs almost forty pounds with it's 20 foot strap. Our solar fencer was light but the electric fence wire and battery were not. Even the fiberglass step in poles added up to quite a bit. (fifteen pounds per fifty posts) Re-packing AGAIN! Our new camper wagon is going to be a help as it can hold quite a bit of extras. Our bed will be on top of everything else packed in there. As it is pulled by horses I guess I'm going to be the alternate driver for it with our DD doing the bulk of the driving while her DH drives their larger wagon with the oxen. We have a family meeting tonight so will know more about who is going to be with us. Two nights, one and one half days to go yet. I keep wondering if I can sleep in the wagon the first few hours of our journey but I bet we'll all need to be on our toes to watch for trouble. Quiltys, be sure to have your medical kit very handy in case of trouble. Michael, great idea about the meeting. I'll be there! (groan,,,,hopefully... after traveling all day)

Milk production. I believe that as long as the animals are still producing we should be able to pick them back up again though perhaps not to former production. You can use a cow in place of an oxen if needed but they most likely won't produce much if any at all until bred again. You can use a lot of animals in a team as is shown by a picture we have in one of our curriculum books. It shows a covered wagon coming into town pulled by a donkey, a horse, a cow and a goat. I bet THAT was a feat of driving.... I believe that we have an advantage over our ancestor pioneers as we can read what they went through and try to avoid some of it. I bet they woud have given their eye teeth for some of our modern inventions. CGA does have the right idea about the fencing. I just can't imagine trying to keep livestock or even wild life out of my hard won garden while I'm getting my wooden fences up. Fields and gardens will have to go in first if we are to get a head start on produce for the year. Firegirl, your idea of the barbed wire might come in handy for sure. It got me to thinking about our solar fencer and deep cycle battery and a roll or two of wire. We have a ton of step in posts but they are plastic. Fine for something that is used to electric fence but not the best for a bull. They are light weight so might just bring them along but will add some fencer insulators for when we put in permanent posts. I'm liking the idea of using the cattle panels on the top of the wagon more and more. AND the modern leakproof material. CeeGee, love your bike. all I could think about was that you could run a taxi service to AH's store once or twice a week maybe LOL. We have a nice folding three wheel bike with a big basket on the back. I believe it might hang on the side of the wagon. BTW, I'm looking forward to Sunday services. (and maybe a Bible study group?) We found this recently and it seems sturdy enough to use for the journey. It would give us another wagon along. It is horse drawn and I believe we might be able to live in it after we get there at least until the cabin is built. What do you all think? Cheating? It's not all that big actually. Okay back to RE-packing. Fence, snow shovels, sythe, bicycle, roll up deer hauling toboggon, traps including a live trap,, (mother goes off mumbling to herself with tape measure in hand, two thousand, five thousand, 12,000, I'm liking the last one best)

RE:weight....Course, Mt.R will have to clue us in for sure on this...but perhaps I can add a bit of historic information to this. A Conestoga was a big freight wagon that was used primarily in the East for hauling. It was big and cumbersome but could haul up to 12,000 pounds at a time for short distances by up to a dozen oxen or teams of horses. It was consistantly sturdy and also heavy. Many pioneers started out (especially in the beginning) with these wagons but they soon found they though they might hold up, they would kill the team very fast and within a month or so would be leaving it behind or at the least would be jettisoning supplies and weight. In later trips most people used Prairie Schooners which were a smaller sized version of the Conestoga that would more easily travel in the wilds of the westward trail. It would haul about 5,000 pounds. The Mormon list specified the 2,000 pounds limit I believe. That was simply because most of the Mormons had much smaller wagons and even small carts, some pulled by people. Most pioneer, according to diaries and journals, went west in prairie schooners or farm wagons and some even rode most of the way in carraiges with supply wagons following with supplies. Farm wagons would most likely be able to handle between 2,000 and 5,000 pounds fairly easily but remember, the teams pulled that weight day after day after day and it took a toll. We are supposedly only going to be on the trail for two months but even at that, there is no way a team of oxen or mules or horses would hold up well pulling 12,000 pounds day after day without let up for rest and even then only with good feed would they make it. It would be akin to us trying to load our vans or vehicles today. How much can you concievable get into it and how much weight will it handle. A motor, like a team of horses, will only handle so much PULL before it dies. It needs gas, water and oil to survive and it can't be overheated. I'm sure there were people who overloaded their wagons on the understanding that they COULD. There is no reason why we can't do the same. However, will your wagon and team make it the whole distance intact? THAT is the question. It is also a good lesson in survival if we really think about it and what this whole exercise is about. It will be the same for all the livestock we are taking. Walking that distance it is doubtful that they would be very productive after a while. Milk animals will give little milk, poultry will stop laying, and even if riding only, will lose weight. Pregnant animals might miscarry or have trouble with births if pushed too hard. When the cowboys drove cattle on trail drives for two to three months at a time they knew that the animals would lose weight unless they allowed them to graze on the way and didn't push them. Now for a few other thoughts that might have escaped others... I have had a hard time trying to fit my entire list of items into my wagon even though I have several family members with their own wagons going along. Each of my families will be taking their own supplies and necessities along as well and it takes careful planning to get items in and still have access to those things you need on the trail. If you are taking tents you have to be able to get them out, set them up and have the bedding at hand without moving six dozen items first. They are often wet in the morning to be put back. Food, pans, utensils, towels, clothing, personal items and etc are all in need of being accessed daily. If you sleep IN the wagons it is even worse as all your bedding would be ON TOP of everything else in the wagon. There just simply is no other room there unless you hang hammocks from the bows, (CGA's bowed cattle panels might be sturdy enough for this) but in most cases, you don't dare touch anything to the cover or it will leak and water will run into your supplies. A wagon bed is normally not wider than four feet (A bit more at the top of the wagon bed for a big conestoga. A queen bed is five feet wide to give you an idea of size) and your bed would be smaller than four feet so as not to touch the sides. During rainy weather there will most likely be people inside the wagons for a good share of the time, especially kids. It's as difficult to keep a kid occupied and still in a wagon as it is in a car for any distance. (Mommmmmmmeeee, I have to go to the bathroom AGAIN!!!) (actually, that would be ME LOL) Wood for a cooking fire needs to be picked up all along the trail during the day normally and if it's raining there is often not any dry wood to be had. Wet wood makes for poor fires. Cooking in the rain makes for miserable cooks. Even using camp stoves might not be possible in the confines of a tent or wagon. I'm not saying this to discourage anyone but to point out that loading the wagon is not something to take lightly. Sure, we can rearrange once we are on the trail to find a better way to do so but that is exactly why items were so often left beside the trail. I'd rather try to think it through ahead of time and have a semblance of organization before I'm wore out with trail travel and fatigue makes it difficult to decide what stays and what goes. As I said in an earlier post, I have drawn out an area in my home where I can visualize the space and have actually moved some things into it to get an idea. There is NOT enough room and I will have to leave several things home. I thought about putting jars of veggies and meat in the flour and grain but for every jar I take I leave home an equal amount of grain or flour. Which will I need most? I love CGA's idea of repurposing the cattle panel as bows but I'd have to take into consideration that those panels are HEAVY and would take away from something else I might need more. I can make fences from wood when I get there from trees I had to clear for planting anyway. Still, might be worth it especially if I was going to be using them for framework for temporary shelter after we arrive. I'm not counting on the 12,000 pounds though. I want to arrive at my destination, intact if possible. .... I'm going with the 5,000 or a bit more IF I can get stuff in.

This is the original list added to at the bottom Skills: As skills go, I have a few, but am more jack of many trades than master of one. (I suspect that Michael is that way as well) (by the way, I just caught the connotation of the assumed names AH, LOL) I have a lot of years in teaching open fire cooking. I have also taught pioneer daily life skills, including making "do" with what we have, Herb lore and usage, food preservation in the past, old ways of producing light, staying warm, doing laundry, cheese making, and more. DH and I and our kids did wildlife rescue (27 years of doing it) and the knowledge of wildlife habitats, how they react in given situations (not always possible as they can be unpredictable), and etc might be valuable. I have some Fiber crafts knowledge (knitting, crochet, weaving, knitting board, spool weaving, and more). I have knowledge and skills in small livestock handling and rearing, especially the old ways, and have some knowledge in herbal remedies for them. I have lots of gardening experience, and some wild crafting knowledge. I also have organizational and people handling skills, as it's what I did for years for a living. I have also, as part of a life long love of pioneer living and a desire to learn first hand what it took to do so, lived for months at a time as our pioneer ancestors did. That is, without electricity, with no running water except what ingenuity rigged up, with only wood heat and cooking, and etc. They did NOT have it easy! What I DON'T have is the physical ability to carry out some of these skills as I did in the past. What is it they say about those who can do; and those who can't teach! I'm probably closer to the teaching end than the doing end. DH will be a great asset but in ways not specific most likely. He is a jack of many trades and can repair almost anything. He is a good make do carpenter. Even at our age (retired) he can outwork many younger than he. His middle name is Ingenuity, LOL. He is also a very good hunter. Hopefully we'll have family coming with us. DD can do almost everything I can plus she is excellent with numbers. GKs are all versatile and willing to help. One GSIL knows hunting inside and out. SIL can handle any farm livestock there is and can not only drive teams but also can farm using them. He can repair almost anything, including farm equipment of the old fashioned kind. DS #2 (#1 is in Thailand and won't be coming along) can do almost anything with metal, mechanics, and he is named after his father's middle name. LOL Youngest son is an excellent and avid hunter and sportsman, welder, mechanic etc. His children, while young, are all willing workers. DDIL has an active mind and can shoot as well as any in the family. I hope there are some things in this list of abilities that will make us good trail mates and useful members of our new community. Okay, list: If all the family comes on the journey we would probably be allowed five wagons. (Five families). Perhaps one would be a supply wagon if some family members doubled up. We will most likely be using a combination of horses, mules, and oxen for the teams but will have to sell many things to be able to afford them and the wagons. Two of the drivers would have to be trained. Animals/livestock: Five Nigerian Goats [3 does, 2 bucks] maybe a kid or two if old enough Two or three Jersey milk cows (to be purchased, we have access to them) Two ewes, one ram sheep Two geese in cage on side of wagon (or herded with livestock to graze) Several chickens also in cages Wouldn't mind a few small piglets Three big dogs (two hunters, one Saint) Like Mt_Rider, perhaps a couple cats for rodent problems (caged) Several riding horses Horses/mules/oxen for teams (to be purchased) All necessary tack for horses and oxen Buckets and containers for feed and water as needed (tied on various wagons) Livestock first aid kit Grain as needed for animals but will hope to find graze and natural sources of feed along the way. Most of the extra tack and all the feed and supplies will be carried in the supply wagon with all extra gear for repairs to wagons and for farming/gardening (plow shares perhaps, various small parts, rakes, hoes, shovels and etc.). The wagon might also contain the corn, popcorn, wheat, rye, barley, oats, Rice?, beets, potatoes, turnips, carrots, and other field seed but not all of it. Some field seeds, along with garden seeds, would be distributed among the other wagons to ensure safety of arrival. Hand shears and electric shears (run from solar pack at first) for sheep for wool Various wood working tools in box Large toolbox with various mechanical and carpentry tools Leather working tools Two man crosscut saw Regular saws for both carpentry and firewood Hunting and fishing supplies and ammo (guns to numerous to mention, bows/arrows, sling shots, etc) We will most likely have them distributed to members of the family and in various wagons. The supply wagon will most likely be our heaviest wagon and would need to be packed cautiously as to weight and distribution. It would have the heaviest team of oxen or mules. Cooking: (some of these will be shared by family both on the trail and after arriving) The family has their own lists for their own wagons as well For the Fire: Two pair of long cuffed leather welding gloves and two pair of short cuffed (we can make more later); Two good shovels of different sizes; Two sets of long handled BBQ utensils (one is wrought iron) Folding reflector/oven; One medium sized grate, and One or two med. Sized steel plate (makes cooking much faster and cleaner) Two campfire ovens (one double and one single folding but depends on space) Four Dutch Ovens with lids (two with flanges and feet) Two large spiders (Big cast fry pans with feet and lids) One cast iron chicken fryer (deep fry pan with lid) Several cast iron saucepans and skillets One large cast iron straight-sided bean cooker Two or three lid lifters Two lid holders (can be used to hold pans in fire as well) Several iron trivets Various odd cast items as space and weight dictates Durable Enamelware dinner service for eight, (for use after arriving) Stainless steel mess kits for each individual (for on the trail) Various stainless steel pots and pans with lids (as room permits but not necessary) Large SS turkey frying pots Various stainless steel bowls, containers and utensils Various Rubbermaid type bowls, containers, and utensils (most either nested or full of supplies for the trip) Set of good kitchen knives plus many extras Two water bath canners (more for large cooking and heating water) Two pressure canners with extra gauges/weights/seals etc Several boxes of canning jars with zinc lids and rubber seals (filled with dried foods) Several boxes of bail lid canning jars with extra rubber seals (filled with dried foods) (last two items packed with foam between as they are packed now in the motor home) Various canning supplies as room permits, in canners perhaps Foley food mill Hand grain grinder Hand operated blender Hand operated juicer (with extra parts) SS mandolin slicer/grater (large size will work to make kraut etc) (Possibly various sized sharpened blades for making kraut makers, slicers and etc. after arriving) Milk setting pans (for cheese and etc) Two or three Ice Tea jars with spigots (used to separate cream easily) Cream cans SS milk storage cans Several large plastic buckets, all full of food and well packed Two metal mesh egg baskets with locking lids (many uses) Dehydrator racks, plastic and metal (optional if room, we can use sheets and etc) Two hanging mesh five shelf food dehydrators (material, folds into small area) Butchering saws and knives Milking buckets and other dairy equipment and supplies Misc. Loom parts that can't be easily or conveniently built (metal heddles and beaters) Rain collection barrel for outside of wagon, gutters to gather water from cover and later from roofs. Various bare root fruit trees, herbs and plants, various cuttings as well Large selection of garden seeds and roots. Misc. medical/herbal/ID books that are not included in the Library Medium sized pop up tent with screen house attached that is very small and fairly light to take along. Foam mattress because I just can't handle hard though I'm sure it will eventually be replaced with wool. Sanitation/bathroom/laundry: Black folding solar shower (also SS shower head and hose for after arrival) TP for trip and cloth squares and soaking bucket for later Portable camping potty, Folding aluminum commode too. Also have unisex urinal Disinfectant wipes and four quarts hand sanitizer for trip Towels and washcloths (will wrap around breakables where possible) Twenty large bars well aged lye soap (used for shampoo, laundry, bathing, dishes) Two gallon Vinegar for rinsing hair and etc (many uses) Large tubs for laundry and bathing Clamp on wringer for tubs This is the new addition to the list. List has also been edited for readability. Various other posts with equipment or supplies was not added here to save space. Clothing and personals Jackets (down, denim, leather, one each) Full rain gear each and extra rubber ponchos each Several flannel shirts each Several lightweight shirts each "Unmentionables" (T-shirts, bra's, undies) (dozens as they will be difficult to replace as we know them) Work pants, jeans, sweats Sweat shirts Socks both heavy and light (dozen pairs each, we can replace these) Long heavy skirts, Calf length lighter skirts All will be packed in the big vacuum sealed bags (Thanks Stephanie for the reminder) Five pair shoes/boots each (various from army boots to sneakers for comfort) Sewing and etc Large supply of knitting needles; crochet hooks, yarn, tatting and tapestry needles; and etc Large sewing kit (needles (LOTS they will be precious), elastic, tape measures, and a whole lot more) Buttons, zippers, hooks and eyes and some velcro Thread (carpet and regular and fishing line) Material (modern poly or nylon and etc as we can manufacture woolen and cotton and leather when we get there) (both light weight and heavy used as padding on trip) Drop spindles and parts for spinning wheel that can't be manufactured Boxes of small nails to be used for small handlooms and knitting boards later More Misc. 2-3 dozen diapers (Tons of uses) 2-3 dozen Flour sack towels (even more uses) Rubber bands, wire ties, wire (various sizes) Salt and pepper grinder, mortars and pestles (various sizes) Large coffee pot Folding camp chairs and tables Wash board and clamp on wringer Strike anywhere matches (waterproofed with wax and sealed) Magnesium fire starter and Flint and Steel Magnifying glasses (several) A large variety of pens, pencils, paper and notebooks. Also journals. A few special family photos Food and supplies Large selection of dried vegetables, fruits and meats (all vacuum sealed) Various dehydrated soup mixes Dried beans, wheat, rice, barley, amaranth, tapioca, millet, corn, oatmeal and oat groats, and other grains. Variety of flours in sealed containers (rice, wheat, corn, potato starch, arrowroot, millet and etc) SALT (canning, sea salt crystals, earth salt) 25 to 50 pounds as space and weight permits in small sealed packages Pepper seeds for grinding A large variety of sprouting seeds and sprouting equipment A large variety of nuts Roots as place is found (potatoes, parsnip, carrots, etc for on trail and later. Not the seed roots) Sugar, maple syrup, agave syrup, and etc in small amounts for a treat Molasses and sorghum Ready to eat bacon, jars of bacon pieces, and fresh bacon and salt pork Cured hams (it's still cool enough to keep some cured meats) Fresh frozen meat in coolers with dried ice for first week or so on trail Shelf stable summer sausages Some canned veggies, fruits, soups, etc for ready to eat meals when needed on the road and at stressful times. Various hard candies for treats and for instant energy Baking powder, soda, cream of tartar, and yeast Large selection of herbs, spices, and seeds (sealed in small packages and distributed through out various wagons with the garden seeds and etc) (medicinal and culinary) Tea herbs (some but most can be found along the way) Various cultures for cheese, yogurt, kefir, sourdough, and etc AND ANYTHING ELSE I'VE FORGOTTEN TO LIST BUT CAN THROW IN AT THE LAST MINUTE………… [/color] We are pretty much ready to go except that I am a bit nervous about my health and my ability to handle this trip. We are seeing a lot of unrest in our area though and would not want to wait longer to leave. Still have to make sure that the rest of the family is ready. Will be doing that Saturday night and be at the meeting place on Sunday night. Until then we are setting guards as Mt_R suggests. (Gosh I'm going to miss my computer)

CGA, I have promise of bred organic jersey cows and a young bull calf. (actually I've had that offer in real life) The calf will be easier to handle than an older bull and will be plenty big enough to breed with when needed next year. I would take some of the poultry with us and thank you for the offer. We lost a lot of ours to raccoon when we were gone earlier this year. I'll add extra grain to our supplies. I am in the process of trying to figure out how to repack the wagon to get all in that I'd like to take. DD and her family of one almost 8 year old boy, a married daughter and a married son, will be coming along with us. (we are actually having a gathering Sat. night to brainstorm just for fun) Not sure about the rest of the family yet but I expect them to come as well. About the dogs. (One actual diary I read says they killed all the dogs in the wagon train as they were going feral or were afraid they would. I think it was here http://www.oregonpioneers.com/1842trip.htm ) Most livestock are herded by the people walking or on horseback so a good cutting pony might be handy. Anyone got one? I like the idea of herd dogs as we've always had Border Collies and shepherds. We don't have one now but I think I know where I can buy a trained one if I can get it before we have to leave. One would help but probably wouldn't be enough with all the livestock we're taking with us collectively. Our jerseys will be tied behind a wagon as we travel and allowed to graze at night when the animals aren't confined to the circle inside the wagon at night. (Wagons were often circled at night with the tongue of one wagon laying on the back wheel of the wagon in front of them and all animals were confined inside that circle if it was big enough and the animals might be in danger. They grazed from stopping time to dark and again in the morning before getting on the trail. I'm not looking forward to sharing my cooking fire with a bunch of animals so hopefully they can be confined to one side, which they usually were according to some diaries.) Also, did you know that wagons rotate their spot every day with the lead wagon one day taking the last spot the following day. That way no one had to eat dust or mud the whole way. Lots of things I'm sure we will learn on the trail.

Another thought for protecting our books, Vacuum sealing them in plastic. Or at least sealing them, perhaps with a bit of air in the bag as then the book might float if it was dumped??? Okay, some rambling to get us thinking::: It's absolutely amazing how much we have become dependent on "modern" things in our life. Like Quilty and AH and I'm sure a lot of you, we use a ton of antique things here in our every day life and always have as I love those every day pioneer items. Cast iron pans, hand operated utensils, handsaws and tools, Long skirts and warm shawls. But as I contemplate packing for this trip I realize more and more an appreciation for our modern conveniences, especially the plastic that is so polluting to our world. This ‘scene’ is a great way to feel our way through the transition back to a simpler way of life. (I thought) I have lived for months without electricity and 'modern' conveniences of running hot and cold water at different times in my life. I have lived for weeks in a covered wagon and tent with only tools and equipment from the past. I have utilized those tools of the past in my daily life for well over forty years but the thought of doing so without even the relative comfort of knowing that I could get in my car (or even my horse and buggy) to run to town to pick up whatever was needed (food, feed for animals, parts, or even water)at least a couple times a year was daunting. Even more so was the thought that I would not be able to go to the hospital if I or a loved one were seriously in need. This would be leaving civilization to go to the wilderness to build a different, hopefully better, 'civilization'. We have all been thinking of Mt.Riders Unreality scenes with a mind to being able to use all that we already have or to being close enough to civilization that we can just pick up the pieces of a fallen society and rebuild it again. This, leaving behind all the conveniences except for what we can carry with us or build once there, is a whole other look at survival. It beats being thrown into a ditch, beaten, bare and in the cold as one of our Edge scenes gave us, but it’s not a whole lot better. In this scene we are not even given an idea of where we are going except that it is a seasonal area and perhaps ideal for self-sufficiency. No idea of what we might face. No idea of what dangers are there. No idea if we might have to face an already hostile population that does not want us there. No idea if we might be able to trade our own products with others for things we can’t produce ourselves. No clue as to what sort of society we plan to build just that it’s going to be better. This is exactly what the people who followed Moses, the Colonists, and Pilgrims, and Pioneer settlers had to face when they left their homes to build a better world. This is why people choose to stay and live in misery. It is extremely difficult to leave something you know and go off into the unknown. Only the very brave or the very dedicated, the foolish, or the very desperate do that. Very few people have joined us on this venture compared to other scenarios that have been played here on Mrs. S. Perhaps it’s because they haven’t found it here tucked away in the PL. I wonder though if perhaps this one was too difficult to contemplate for some. I KNEW it would be fun. I’ve written about it in books and stories and articles numerous times in the past forty years. I eagerly embraced the task of sorting through what I personally would and wouldn’t take. Then I started to seriously think about the life I knew we would be going into if we truly followed this path and I began to see the difficulties I didn’t see in the past (when I was younger), especially for those of us who are handicapped or older or ill. I am still loving the challenge of it but now the seriousness of this possibility has me looking at what life might be like if we actually DID this. Because I have been a life long student of alternate and pioneer lifestyles I can see where this might lead. Seeing where it might lead, as a community not an individual, makes a big difference in what we bring along. Stephanie hit on the subject of teaching our young people in the future. What WOULD we teach them if we want their lives to be different, better, than what we are leaving? Do we teach them how to continue to make plastic? Do we teach them a better way to govern people? Do we want them to learn to be 'civilized' or are we going to teach them to survive and thrive in the wilderness with no thought of moving beyond that? If you had no access to 'manufacturing' as we know it now, what would you need to bring along from the past to ensure a better future? That is a question that haunts me now. I would have my grandkids to think about. What about you?

OH Excellent Q. Like you, I fear leaving something necessary behind and bringing along something that we could do without. I had a thought for sterilizing. Can the canner be used for that? I believe some canners come in autoclave capacity but I'm not positive about the temps and all. Yesterday I was talking with friends about this thread and they asked me what "Modern" items I would be bringing along instead of my antique items and that us all stop and think. Here is a partial list: Insulated items like Thinsulate (boots, gloves, jackets, etc) and insulated material Silver backed blankets to reflect heat Modern tent and sleeping bags (like Quilty's) Insulated cooker (mine uses thinsulate inside and is SS outside with two SS pans) Rubber ponchos and rain gear (Motorcycle gear is great) Rubber boots and insulated rubber ones Several sand points for driven wells with various pipe (We had that thought too Q) Hand well pump with extra leathers (we have two sizes now) Would use modern light weight material for wagon cover and liner (tent type material for use later as living quarters until we get the cabin built) Tent screening to be used for dehydrator trays later Opaque and clear Plexiglas for windows and for making solar dehydrators and heaters ( would most likely pack inside the wagons along the sides) (I'll barter some to AH for his store LOL) Down jacket (a bit bulky but WARM and has durable material) Few more books (basic weaving/spinning/crochet/macramé/knitting/etc for one and make your own patterns for another.) Two very small butane stoves for rainy days on the trail (with extra butane. Light weight and disposable later) A concern was brought up yesterday as well. What would we do if the Library Wagon ran into difficulties like going over a cliff or worse, getting soaked in a river. Some absolutely necessary books might be duplicated and dispersed among various wagons. I also had some questions answered about using a bull in place of an oxen. (my friends are preppers and farm with horses and etc) Bulls are too unpredictable to use in that way as a normal rule but cows could be used as oxen (and often were) but they would be best to be 'dry' cows and either bred during the trip with a bull brought along or after arriving. He says that there will be some difficulty keeping the bull from the cows while they are 'working' so be prepared to handle that via some good cow ponies. It would most likely mean that we wouldn't have to worry about the bull straying away though as he would want to stay near his "girls". I'm sure there are more but now I'm off to figure out clothing, personals, and etc. (That is IF I have any room left for more)

Mt_R asks that I list what I took OFF my list and why but I had already deleted them when she asked. Most of what I did delete was because of the ability to do without it on the trail and to manufacture it after we arrived. There were also things like extra pans and kitchen gadgets that could have made life a bit easier but took up more space/weight than I was willing to trade off. (I have a lot of 12 volt and hand operated appliances) Another thing I'd like to touch on before posting my list is that modern material could be used in place of cotton or wool or denim. Some of it is often very strong and durable and even warm if you are talking thinsulate type things. Some of it is not suitable for around the fire though. Melting is one of the problems. Bolts of that type of material would also be lighter to bring along. Still, it's something to consider. Once there, however, we'd have to reconsider what our clothing would be made from. Okay, list: If all the family comes on the journey we would probably be allowed five wagons. (Five families). Perhaps one would be a supply wagon if some family members doubled up. We will most likely be using a combination of horses, mules, and oxen for the teams but will have to sell many things to be able to afford them and the wagons. Two of the drivers would have to be trained. Animals/livestock: Five Nigerian Goats [3 does, 2 bucks] maybe a kid or two if old enough Two or three Jersey milk cows (to be purchased, we have access to them) Two ewes, one ram sheep Two geese in cage on side of wagon (or herded with livestock to graze) Several chickens also in cages Wouldn’t mind a few small piglets Three big dogs (two hunters, one Saint) Like Mt_Rider, perhaps a couple cats for rodent problems (caged) Several riding horses Horses/mules/oxen for teams (to be purchased) All necessary tack for horses and oxen Buckets and containers for feed and water as needed (tied on various wagons) Livestock first aid kit Grain as needed for animals but will hope to find graze and natural sources of feed along the way. Most of the extra tack and all the feed and supplies will be carried in the supply wagon with all extra gear for repairs to wagons and for farming/gardening (plow shares perhaps, various small parts, rakes, hoes, shovels and etc.). The wagon might also contain the corn, popcorn, wheat, rye, barley, oats, Rice?, beets, potatoes, turnips, carrots, and other field seed but not all of it. Some field seeds, along with garden seeds, would be distributed among the other wagons to ensure safety of arrival. Hand shears and electric shears (run from solar pack at first) for sheep for wool Various wood working tools in box Large toolbox with various mechanical and carpentry tools Leather working tools Two man crosscut saw Regular saws for both carpentry and firewood Hunting and fishing supplies and ammo (guns to numerous to mention, bows/arrows, sling shots, etc) We will most likely have them distributed to members of the family and in various wagons. The supply wagon will most likely be our heaviest wagon and would need to be packed cautiously as to weight and distribution. It would have the heaviest team of oxen or mules. I would like to take along a jersey bull but that would depend. Bulls do not make good oxen I understand nor are they usually trustworthy to handle. Any suggestions? Cooking: (some of these will be shared by family both on the trail and after arriving) The family has their own lists for their own wagons as well For the Fire: Two pair of long cuffed leather welding gloves and two pair of short cuffed (we can make more later); Two good shovels of different sizes; Two sets of long handled BBQ utensils (one is wrought iron) Folding reflector/oven; One medium sized grate, and One or two med. Sized steel plate (makes cooking much faster and cleaner) Two campfire ovens (one double and one single folding but depends on space) Four Dutch Ovens with lids (two with flanges and feet) Two large spiders (Big cast fry pans with feet and lids) One cast iron chicken fryer (deep fry pan with lid) Several cast iron saucepans and skillets One large cast iron straight-sided bean cooker Two or three lid lifters Two lid holders (can be used to hold pans in fire as well) Several iron trivets Various odd cast items as space and weight dictates Durable Enamelware dinner service for eight, (for use after arriving) Stainless steel mess kits for each individual (for on the trail) Various stainless steel pots and pans with lids (as room permits but not necessary) Large SS turkey frying pots Various stainless steel bowls, containers and utensils Various Rubbermaid type bowls, containers, and utensils (most either nested or full of supplies for the trip) Set of good kitchen knives plus many extras Two water bath canners (more for large cooking and heating water) Two pressure canners with extra gauges/weights/seals etc Several boxes of canning jars with zinc lids and rubber seals (filled with dried foods) Several boxes of bail lid canning jars with extra rubber seals (filled with dried foods) (last two items packed with foam between as they are packed now in the motor home) Various canning supplies as room permits, in canners perhaps Foley food mill Hand grain grinder Hand operated blender Hand operated juicer (with extra parts) SS mandolin slicer/grater (large size will work to make kraut etc) (Possibly various sized sharpened blades for making kraut makers, slicers and etc. after arriving) Milk setting pans (for cheese and etc) Two or three Ice Tea jars with spigots (used to separate cream easily) Cream cans SS milk storage cans Several large plastic buckets, all full of food and well packed Two metal mesh egg baskets with locking lids (many uses) Dehydrator racks, plastic and metal (optional if room, we can use sheets and etc) Two hanging mesh five shelf food dehydrators (material, folds into small area) Butchering saws and knives Milking buckets and other dairy equipment and supplies Misc. Loom parts that can’t be easily or conveniently built (metal heddles and beaters) Rain collection barrel for outside of wagon, gutters to gather water from cover and later from roofs. Various bare root fruit trees, herbs and plants, various cuttings as well Large selection of garden seeds and roots. Misc. medical/herbal/ID books that are not included in the Library Medium sized pop up tent with screen house attached that is very small and fairly light to take along. Foam mattress because I just can’t handle hard though I’m sure it will eventually be replaced with wool. Sanitation/bathroom/laundry: Black folding solar shower (also SS shower head and hose for after arrival) TP for trip and cloth squares and soaking bucket for later Portable camping potty, Folding aluminum commode too. Also have unisex urinal Disinfectant wipes and four quarts hand sanitizer for trip Towels and washcloths (will wrap around breakables where possible) Twenty large bars well aged lye soap (used for shampoo, laundry, bathing, dishes) Two gallon Vinegar for rinsing hair and etc (many uses) Large tubs for laundry and bathing Clamp on wringer for tubs This list is still too long and will be cut more most likely. I haven't even touched on personal clothing and items yet but will work on those too. Have to be ready to go when Wagon Master says "wagons ho" :bighgu2:

My list will be up soon but first I have to go back to it and DELETE things that could be manufactured after we get there and save on space and weight for those more desperately needed items. I will agree on the books, especially a well rounded selection that would carry children into adulthood but......what we bring along for books might be decided by the type of community we plan to build. We might have an incredible amount of how-to information among us who are going but what do we see for the future of our children in this community? Will they need to know more about survival than comfort? Will they need to learn about history so as not to repeat it? hmmmmm thoughts to think on but not necessarily to discuss here though I'm sure that the pilgrims, pioneers, settlers, and others moving to new wildernesses thought those things as well. Are we going to all this work so we can end up back where we were? As for paper. It can be made from wood pulp and natural fibers of which I believe we might have plenty. Might not be commercial grade but it would work. Most pioneer kids practiced with a stick in the dirt or a piece of charcoal from the fire on the hearth or from slate black boards they carried with them. Nice to have some good quality things along but at what sacrifice to something else? Pencils, crayons, colored pensils, ink pens???? Ink we can make from natural materials, even in colored form perhaps; pencils are possible with a source of graffite or even lead though that's not real safe for kids; Charcoal can be utilized as well. Again, in order to really know what we need to bring along we need to know what we plan for the future community or even the future of our family. So many possibilities! You got to love it.....

Congrats on your posts AH but we CAN'T go yet. I'm NOT ready. My working list is so long that I know I'm going to have to cut it back but wanted to get a feel for what we might need once there.......Lots of things can be manufactured there though and I'm counting on you and my guys to be able to come up with all sorts of things,,,,like Kraut cutters and other useful kitchen goodies. I find it interesting that our posts here are probably much like the conversations that the wagon train members would have had before it was time to leave. What are you taking, where are we headed, when will we leave? What do you think it will be like when we get there and what will we be able to manufacture or not once there? Will it be a safe place or will we have to fight the 'locals'? Most pioneer/settlers decided they would be going long ahead of time. They often had months to prepare and that long waiting time only managed to bring up ore questions. Yet, in the scheme of things, they would have needed that time to not only get things gathered together but to reassess what they were taking. Those wagons are NOT very big and the beds on them not very deep. You can only pile stuff so high before it starts to become unbalanced or difficult for the team to pull it. The more team you bring along, the more you need to care for and feed. Most families were lucky to get a couple of mules or oxen and maybe a spare or two if they were lucky. I have taken an area in my entryway that is approximately the square footage of a wagon. It's shorter and wider but it gives me a view of the area I'd need to fill. I have been placing items there, things I felt we couldn't do without and believe me,,,It's not all going to fit and still have room for bedding above it all. The clothing alone, that is enough sturdy clothes, winter jackets, and shoes/boots, to withstand the hardships of the new wilderness experience and last until material can be woven/manufactured (can't shear sheep just any old time) for more, will take up a fairly large space. I'm adding heavy aprons to protect some of them. I'm thinking of lightweight canvas for lining the inside of the wagon. This could be complete with pockets for storing things and could be re-purposed as heavy work clothes or jackets but I have to watch the weight on that too. Lots to think about. Anyone have any more thoughts along this line?

PCS Yeah,,,,I'm so glad to see you here. Nope, most wagon trains did not have a cook wagon. Each family usually cooked for themselves but often on a communal fire. They did, however, share in the spoils of the hunt and often shared what they had with each other as a way to lighten the cooking burden. Often those who were ill or injured had help from all the rest. I'd be glad to have you cook for us PCS but I don't want you to over do it. Still, if we do have meals together we're going to need some big big big pans. I've got a 30 inch (four or five inch deep) heavy steel fry pan, a 16 inch plain Dutch, a 14 inch footed Dutch with flanged lid, and a couple of nice deep SS turkey frying vats I'd bring along if we had a wagon designated for that heavier stuff. I've got some really big wooden bread bowls, and some nice sized SS bowls too. (Got to have biscuits, right?) Just saying,,,,if we DO PCS is going along!!!!!

Hmmmm, Are you sure, your posts don't look old enough to be that picture!!.

OHHHHHH I AM envious AH. That's a really nice wagon. Can you give us the dementions on it? It looks as if the gentleman was standing inside he'd touch or almost touch the top. It really is a falacy that most settlers used a conestoga wagon to travel across the west. Most were lucky they could afford a farm wagon with a make shift cover over the top. Surprisingly enough, especially later in the migration, some people traveled in buggies with wagons coming behind but it wasn't the best way to travel and most of them ended up in the wagon or walking eventually. Buggies were just not meant to stand up to that abuse. Anarchy, that's a great start to the list. Water is truly a heavy item and as Mt_R says we're to have a water wagon following us we can hedge a little on that but.........what if something happens to the water wagon??? She DOES promise us some adventures. I believe I'll at least add a barrel to the outside of my wagon and keep it full as well. We're bound to find some water along the way....I hope.

AH Michael, I hope you get it soon. Now you have me curious.

Trying to list things Mt_Rider suggested. I'll add more about what we are bringing along soon. Skills: As skills go, I have a few, but am more jack of many trades than master of one. (I suspect that Michael is that way as well) (by the way, I just caught the connotation of the assumed names AH, LOL) I have a lot of years in teaching open fire cooking. I have also taught pioneer daily life skills, including making "do" with what we have, Herb lore and usage, food preservation in the past, old ways of producing light, staying warm, doing laundry, cheese making, and more. DH and I and our kids did wildlife rescue (27 years of doing it) and the knowledge of wildlife habitats, how they react in given situations (not always possible as they can be unpredictable), and etc might be valuable. I have some Fiber crafts knowledge (knitting, crochet, weaving, knitting board, spool weaving, and more). I have knowledge and skills in small livestock handling and rearing, especially the old ways, and have some knowledge in herbal remedies for them. I have lots of gardening experience, and some wild crafting knowledge. I also have organizational and people handling skills, as it’s what I did for years for a living. I have also, as part of a life long love of pioneer living and a desire to learn first hand what it took to do so, lived for months at a time as our pioneer ancestors did. That is, without electricity, with no running water except what ingenuity rigged up, with only wood heat and cooking, and etc. They did NOT have it easy! What I DON'T have is the physical ability to carry out some of these skills as I did in the past. What is it they say about those who can do; and those who can't teach! I'm probably closer to the teaching end than the doing end. DH will be a great asset but in ways not specific most likely. He is a jack of many trades and can repair almost anything. He is a good make do carpenter. Even at our age (retired) he can outwork many younger than he. His middle name is Ingenuity, LOL. He is also a very good hunter. Hopefully we'll have family coming with us. DD can do almost everything I can plus she is excellent with numbers. GKs are all versatile and willing to help. One GSIL knows hunting inside and out. SIL can handle any farm livestock there is and can not only drive teams but also can farm using them. He can repair almost anything, including farm equipment of the old fashioned kind. DS #2 (#1 is in Thailand and won't be coming along) can do almost anything with metal, mechanics, and he is named after his father's middle name. LOL Youngest son is an excellent and avid hunter and sportsman, welder, mechanic etc. His children, while young, are all willing workers. DDIL has an active mind and can shoot as well as any in the family. I hope there are some things in this list of abilities that will make us good trail mates and useful members of our new community.

I was thinking the same thing Michael so have decided to post a part of my list instead of trying to get it all together. I sure wouldn't want anyone to leave me behind. Those of you who know me probably will be amazed to have me say this but,,,,I'm glad we can bring along modern inventions. I have always opined that combining the best of both worlds (past and present) would be the only way to survive in today's world. To get an idea of what modern items we might want to take I consulted with our 7 YO GS. Some of you will know that we help to home school him, teaching history and science two days a week. Last year we did a whole curriculum on covered wagon travel and living complete with outfitting a 1/12-scale wagon. We often had to make our own ‘to scale’ supplies so he’s pretty knowledgeable about what needs to go in them. He recommends that we bring along our small solar panels, gel cell batteries, and a few solar lights. Now I can think of all kinds of things we might use that set up for but he says that we need it because “it gets mighty dark in the wilderness and we might want that ‘comfort’”. (yes, he does talk that way and he’s more than just a little afraid of the dark). Now, admittedly, that solar set up might not last a long time, and it would have to be packed extremely well to make the trip but he’s right. So many people, especially those coming from an urban setting, have any clue how dark it can be at night in the wilderness. Have you ever looked out your window and NOT seen a light in the distance? Most of us have flashlights and even, if you are like me, wind up ones that will last a long time into the future. We have lanterns and lamps but they are dependent on fuel. We can make all sort of lights as well, like the grease lamps or the vegetable oil lights but they also are dependent on fuel. Candles are also a possibility but they need substances as well and the truth be known, most of them are going to give a meager light at best in a vast wilderness of darkness. A good experiment is to go into a large totally dark room, devoid of ALL light sources. If the room is small like a bathroom or closet you will be perfectly comfortable with the light from a flashlight or even an oil lamp. If that room has a mirror in it, so much the better. BUT if you use a large room and you depend on say just a candle you are going to find that it’s pretty difficult to see farther than right in front of you. Now compare it to the only light in MILES!!! Like AH, I have a ton of historic items to bring along but the first “modern” convenience I’m putting in our wagon will be that small solar system. Not just for comfort either. That light might prove invaluable if a medical emergency comes up in the future. I have a half dozen or better 12 volt items that could be used with the system but I’ll be very selective of those before adding them. I will be adding the 12-volt battery charger (we have a solar one for charging small batteries as well) and a couple of portable battery packs. That would allow us to make the light or whatever, portable. As our battery packs also have inverters we would be able to run some electrical (110) items as well. Even if the system didn’t last forever, at least we’d have it until we got more inured to the lifestyle. More coming.

At one time I had done a series of articles for the Historic Village Museum that I worked for. I used them at various times as a basis for workshops and seminars as well. There is a perspective in them that gives some insight into getting ready to leave your home and family to travel in a covered wagon to the great unknown. I posted them in the Fireside in case anyone would like to read them. Here are a few more thoughts to get you thinking..... One question I received often from women was a personal one. "How did women go to the bathroom when on the prairie or on the trail without outhouses?" My reply was...Long dresses and open crotched pantaloons were a wonderful invention..... So were chamber pots.....Porta Potties were not pulled along behind the wagons and emptied at each town. Now maybe that's more info than you needed but if we are going to try to make this realistic enough to understand the possibilities we need to be thinking all things through. Long skirts are really not practical on the trail or around a fire but they did have their uses...... Just how much toilet paper can you get in a wagon? Do you know what leaves are safe to use as alternatives? How many diapers can you wash and hang inside a wagon? Will they dry and if they do, will they be covered with trail dust? Is there an alternative? What if someone gets ill on the trail? Will you have the ability to care for them? Medicines? What about their comfort? Have you ever been sick in a moving vehicle? You should try a wagon if you think that's bad. Can you cook food over an open fire? What about doing so in the rain? In a storm? Do all your pots and pans have covers? Can you keep your salt and sugar and etc dry? Can you think ahead far enough to have 'something' for the kids who are crying with hunger and can't wait until the rain stops? Or perhaps it's a hungry DH that's in need of feeding despite the rain. Did you think to bring along a hat? A wide brimmed hat? A rubber poncho? Rubber boots? Okay, I'll quit for a while. Now I have to get my OWN wagon packed if I'm going along. I've experienced covered wagon living before. Not months but enough to make me realize that you can get by with a whole lot less than you think. Packing to MOVE to another area is a whole other experience I believe. Like Mt_R I'm tempted by so many things that I THINK I need but I know exactly how small a space a wagon contains. By the way....Last year I taught Covered Wagon Living to our home schooled 7 year old GS. We 'furnished' a 1/12 scale replica covered wagon with miniatures we either found or made (am still finding things actually as this year we are doing a chuck wagon study). It was an experience for both of us and a whole lot of fun but it taught me that even using miniatures I couldn't get it all in.....

Darlene, would it work for us to quote reply to our own posts and edit it at that point? That would bring the new info forward as well as edit it....wouldn't it???? or not??? I'm as computer savy as an infant and some of them are more savy....

This is a Mormon list for travel's west to Utah. It takes into consideration that there were many going together just as we would be doing for this exercise. Requirements for Mormons on their journey to Utah 1 strong wagon, well covered 2 or 3 good yoke of oxen, ages 4-10 2 or 3 good milk cows 1 or 2 good beef 3 sheep, if can be obtained 1000 pounds of flour or bread stuff in good sacks (corn meal ?) 1 bushel of beans (dried legumes) 100 pounds of sugar 1 good musket or rifle to each male over 12,1#powder,4#lead 1 pounds tea, 5 pounds coffee A few pounds of dried beef or bacon 25 pound sack of whole grain 25-100 pounds farming and mechanical tools Clothing and bedding per family, not to exceed 500 pounds Cooking utensils, bake kettle, fry pan, coffee pot, tea kettle, Tin cups, plates, folks, knives, spoons, pans, etc. A few goods to trade with Indians 15 pounds iron and steel (for repairs?) A few pounds of wrought nails 1 gallon alcohol 10 pounds apples, 5 pounds dried peaches, 25 pounds salt, 2 pounds pepper, 5 pounds soda, cayenne pepper, 1 pound cinnamon, 1/2 pound cloves 20 pounds soap A good tent and furniture for each two families 1 or more sets of saw and gristmill irons to each 100 families 1 fish seine for each company, 4 or 5 hooks and lines 2 sets of pull(e)y blocks for crossing rivers to each company 2 ferry boats to each company Each wagon to carry one ton without people or 2800 pounds with them. 10 extra teams per company of 100 N.B. (?)-- In addition to the above list, horse and mule teams can be used as well as oxen. Many items of comfort and convenience will suggest themselves to a wise and provident people and can be laid in season, but none should start without filling the original bill first.

Bravo Mt_Rider. A wonderful tool to make us THINK!!! You come up with the neatest ideas. Thanks for this one. Okay, first, I just got back from five days of travel in a motor home and am a bit tired yet so will have to add to this as I get my brain in order. Please my forgiving as I ramble here with thoughts in no particular order at this point. Trying to take along even enough food for the time it would take us to reach our destination would take up a lot more weight and space than you might imagine. If you add to that enough food to last us until we were established you could have the wagon over half full right there. Add to that all the supplies and materials that you would need to set up housekeeping and provide sustenance and a living after that would be very challenging. The Belknap diary, referred to in one of the links on Mt_Rider's first post, is one of the most famous records of how a family prepared for the trip. There were other diaries as well, all good sources of information, but many were written before the trip started when an idealistic belief was still very strong. The actual trip was not nearly as wonderful as most people were led to believe. If I read Mt_R's scenario right, she is suggesting that we are going to be starting a new community that does not include electronics and perhaps very few modern inventions. Those you do bring along will have to be durable or expendable for life will not be all that easy despite the beauty and wonders of the "wilderness" to which she is leading us. While you are preparing for this exercise, I suggest that you not just read what is written as much as think through what would be the realities of travel in this way (thanks Gulfcoastruth for your taste of reality) and base what you are taking along on the fact that you will not be living as you do now if you take this journey and in fact, it might be years before you would have any of the niceties you have now. She is also telling us that we can take along only what we "already have". That could be even more challenging than what the pioneer had as they often sold everything they owned that could not be taken along and bought what they needed. Food alone will be a challenge for many as a lot of us store food in the form of frozen or home canned. Food in jars is not appropriate for wagon travel as they are shaken way too much to be either safe from breakage or from spoilage. Canning equipment, likewise, might seem a necessity and indeed, it could be, especially the big water bath canners or heavy pressure canners but more for heating water for use in bathing and etc or hauling water from a stream. It might be possible to bring along enough jars to use in canning once we get there, but how much space and weight would they take up? Do you have the old-fashioned reusable zinc lids and rubber rings? Again, remember the weight and space limits. How many have cast iron cookware? You can take you lightweight cooking gear but let me assure you it will hold up little better than the tin of day's past when used repeatedly over a fire but then again, how many cast iron pans can you take and still remember the weight and space limits. Cast was usually carried in containers made for them and attached to the outside of the wagons but the weight was great and had to be figured in. People soon learn on the trail that it would be much better to throw out Grandma's beautiful dresser rather than the cast iron pot they need daily for cooking. Okay, just a few things to think about. I'll be posting the list of supplies recommended by the Mormons for those people journeying to Salt Lake City.

Please be aware that there is some controversy about using Elderberry for the more potent types of flu, like the Avian flu and even the Swine Flu was included in that. I believe because the Swine Flu is much lighter than was thought to have been that there aren't the cytokine storms that are seen with more severe forms of flu. Still, It never hurts to do research on what you are taking. There's lots of info here on Mrs. S about Elderberry and the flu including some recipes. Just do a search for it and then make your own decisions.