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Romans 8:17


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Heavenly Father,


I feel the need to do today's study right now (more than normal). While I don't know what it holds, You do.


May Your Spirit move over the words that are typed here and annoint them, for Your glory.


I'm feeling a little fearful this morning and I don't quite know why, but I trust You, I love You and I need You in my life.


In Jesus Name I pray,


17. and if children, then heirs: heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also glorified with Him.


Watchman Nee comments on the word “if” in the 17th verse:


“if”: “This shows that there is a condition for us to be heirs. It is not that we are heirs simply because we are children of God. Rather, after being born as children, we must grow in life to become sons, and then we must pass through suffering that we may be glorified to become legal heirs.”


The rvbv writes, “If born-ones, then heirs - We have noted that the word for children here, tekna, is different from the word for adult-sons (huioi) of verse 14. The word indicates the fact that we are really begotten of God ghrough His Word by His Spirit, and are partakers of His nature. Heirship is from relationship. The young ruler who came running to the Lord saying, “What good thing shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?” was a perfect example of a legalist. Indeed, Nicodemus, beloved man, “understood not these things” - of being born again. Now, if a man is really a child of God by begetting and birth, he becomes indissolubly God’s heir! This is a fact of such overwhelming magnitured that our poor hearts hardly grasp it. It is said of no angel, cherub, or seraph, that he is an heir of God. Believer, if you will reflect, meditate deeply, on this, ‘I am born of God; I am one of His heirs!’ earthly things will shrink to nothing. Now, J.D. Rockefeller, Jr., has inherited his father’s wealth: why? Because he was his father’s born son. The young ruler said, “What must I do to inherit?” a contradiction in itself!


Heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ - I could not have the presumption to write these words if they were not in God’s holy Book. That a guilty, lost, wretched child of Adam the First should have written of him, a joint-heir with Christ, the Eternal Maker of all things, the Well-beloved of the Father, the righteous One, the Prince of life - only God, the God of all grace could prepare such a destiny for such a creature!


And, we may humbly say, perhaps, that God could only do this by joining us in eternal union with His beloved Son, as the Last Adam, the Second Man; having released us from Adam the First and all his connections, at the cross, and having placed us in Christ Risen, in all the boundless and everlasting rights of His dear Son, whom He has “appointed heir of all things!” Ages after ages of ever-increasing blessing forever and forever and forever, lie in prospect for believers - for the joint-heirs!


If so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also glorified with Him - Here two schools of interpretation part company, one saying boldly that all the saints are designated, and that all shall reign with Christ; the other, that reigning with Christ depends upon voluntary choosing of a path of suffering with Him. Well, the Greek word eiper translated “if so be,” will support either of these interpretations. (Eiper - “if so be that,” is used six times in the New Testament: Rom. 8:9 and 17; 1 Cor. 8:5; 15:15; II Thess. 1:6; I Pet. 2:3. An examination of these references shows that this word eiper can only be interpreted in one passage, I Cor. 15:15, as introducing a nonexistent state of things; and here it is only most evidently for the sake of argument only: “If so be that the dead rise not.” This use in Rom. 8:9, the text proves to be in connection with a positive asserted fact: “if so be the Spirit of God dwelleth in you.” This word eiper can be rendered in all six passages by “if, as is supposed.” I would suggest this rendering, “inasmuch as,” for Rom. 8:17.).


“That we may also be glorified together.” This is the key to our question: WHO are to be glorified with Christ when He comes? In Chapter Five Paul says (and that of, and to, all the saints), “We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.” And in II Thessalonians 1:10 we read, “When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be marveled at in all them that believed.” And in I Corinthians 15:23: “Christ the first fruits; then they that are Christ’s at His coming.” And again (Col. 3:4): “When Christ our life shall be manifested, then shall ye also [evidently all the saints!] with Him be manifested in glory.” Again (I John 3:2): “Now are we [all the saints] children of God…We know that, if He shall be manifested, we [all the saints] shall be like Him; for we shall see Him even as He is!”


Such passages leave no room at all for a “partial rapture!” All the saints will share Christ’s glory.


Now, as to places in the Kingdom, what reward we shall have, what responsibilities of kingdom government (in the 1000 years), we shall each be able to bear, or be entitled to, our “suffering with” Christ Jesus, seems to determine. “If we died with Him [as did all believers] we shall [all] also live with Him [in glory]; if we endure, we shall also reign with Him” (II Tim. 2:12, R.V.).


Now the Greek word used in Romans 8:17 for “suffer with” (sumpascho) is used just once more in the New Testament: in I Corinthians 12:16: “If one member suffer, all the members suffer with it.” Here Paul is speaking of the Body of Christ into which all believers have been baptized by the Spirit (I Cor. 12:12,13): “As the [human] body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the body, being many, are one body; so also is Christ; For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one Body.” Here note all believers are in this Body. And then, verse 26: “Whether one member suffered, all the members suffer with it.” Here (and mark again this is the only occurrence of the word besides Rom. 8:17) “suffering with” is not a voluntary matter, but one necessitated by the relationship. If someone should tread upon your foot, your whole body would be exercised. So it is with Christ and His members.


Now as to the other word, of II Timothy 2:12: “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him”; this word is entirely different: but (and note this), the subject of which it treats is different. Being a joint-heir with Christ, and being a member of His Body, and therefore, sharing necessarily those sufferings that every member of a living Christ will suffer in a world where Satan is prince, is one thing; gaining the ability to have victory over Satan and the world, entering gladly into the conflict those sufferings involve, and enduring, is perhaps an additional thing, fitting one for reigning with Christ, though all His members are joint-heirs with Him.”


Heavenly Father,


I have a few emotions that keep swirling around in my heart as I type this teaching on the 17th verse. What Newell said at the beginning, “That a guilty, lost, wretched child of Adam the First should have written of him, a joint-heir with Christ…”


This causes me to draw in once again the enormity of all that Christ has done for us in His death and resurrection.


I don’t know if I can properly put this into words Father, but when I think about how much You, Yourself suffered in sending Jesus to earth to ultimately pay the price for our sins…You have given so much, just to secure us as Your children. I can’t imagine the horror Your heart must have felt as You watched Your Holy Son disrespected, beaten, hurt, etc. I can’t imagine how Your heart must have cringed as You saw Him hang on that Cross, yet You were committed and allowed all that to happen, so that I, and we, could freely have this relationship with You as our Heavenly Father.


Words are too inadequate…my point is, when I think about being joint-heirs with Christ, I can’t help but think to myself, “ok, this is what God has stated IS…but boy oh boy oh boy, I can’t believe He continues to offer us so much, when I’ve done so little for Him…and all He asks is that I believe and accept all that He has stated in return for all that He desires to give”.


It just makes me want to cry.


Thank You Father, and boy do the words ‘thank you’ feel shallow right now…but thank You for my salvation and all that that means.


In Jesus Name I pray,

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Being a joint-heir with Christ, and being a member of His Body, and therefore, sharing necessarily those sufferings that every member of a living Christ will suffer in a world where Satan is prince, is one thing; gaining the ability to have victory over Satan and the world, entering gladly into the conflict those sufferings involve, and enduring, is perhaps an additional thing, fitting one for reigning with Christ, though all His members are joint-heirs with Him.”


I've had trouble keeping up with Romans due to being off-line for so long. I hope I can catch up.... But today I just began reading where y'all are in this study. I'm always surprised to find a reoccurring theme and this week is one of those.


Thinking of suffering with Christ/for Christ/because of Christ's name attached to me..... :0327: Frankly, I consider myself a huge "chicken" when it comes to even *thinking* of such things. :behindsofa: Not so much getting verbally abused or scorned. But ...you know, the thought of actual physical torture...events that go on everyday in other parts of this world. The Bible passage [that arrives faithfully in my email] for today included Mark 14 [ 27) And Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away; for it is written, `I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.' 28) But after I am raised up, I will go before you to Galilee." 29) Peter said to him, "Even though they all fall away, I will not." 30) And Jesus said to him, "Truly, I say to you, this very night, before the cock crows twice, you will deny me three times." 31) But he said vehemently, "If I must die with you, I will not deny you." And they all said the same. ] .....And I'm thinking, as I have always thot of that verse.... not me. Lord, the last thing I would WANT to do is deny You or even just RUN, but....I very simply canNOT imagine having the courage to face what He did on the cross and even before, during the questioning, etc. It is way outside my comforting little realm.


And so the front page news gets more and more frightening. Will it really come to this? Will we face even physical persecution....real suffering/dying? Not just in some far-off country? What IS Your expectation of us "chickens", Lord? Even Peter, who got all the way in the door with Jesus when others just scattered as foretold....even he ended up denying Him.


Then also, I am reading Joel C. Rosenberg's series [adventure/Christian prophecy/End-Times meets today's front page news type of book] of The Last Jihad, The Last Days, and now I'm on the Ezekiel Option. A piece of this fictional story just about knocked me over this morning. [it's a bit graphic in violence....skim only if that bothers you..... ]


Chapter 37; page 236-7.

The cell door burst open. The lights came on, but there was no nurse. Two armed guards unshackled McCoy, ripped the IV from her arm, and forced her to her feet. They dragged her through a long, dark hallway and down three flights of stairs before strapping her hands, feet, and neck to a pole in the center of what appeared to be a large, empty basement. [snip]

...a man entered the room. His face and head were covered by a hood, like someone in the Ku Klux Klan, except black. He walked toward her, carrying something behind his back, though she couldn't tell what. Seconds later McCoy felt a baton smash into her stomach.

She couldn't breathe.

Again she felt the full force of the wooden club, this time across the face. She gasped for air as blood and tears blurred her vision. "Jesus!" she tried to cry out, but the words would not form. Blood streamed down her face. She gritted her teeth and braced for more. They would stop soon, she told herself. If they'd wanted her dead, they would have killed her by now.

No, she told herself, these people want something. Which meant she was too valuable to kill. They wanted information. But it didn't matter. She would not give up her friends...betray her country or her God. She didn't care how hard they beat her. She would tell them nothing. But the questions never came. The interrogation never began. The beating just continued mercilessly. This man was possessed. He was shouting at her....

The blows rained down harder, on her face and arms and across her chest and legs. Maybe she was wrong. Maybe she wasn't as valuable as she'd thought, or hoped.

Then let them kill me, she decided.

Other believers had suffered in this country {Russia}. Others had died at these hands, and hands like them. Jesus had suffered far worse. He had suffered and bled and died for her. For her sins. To set her free. To adopt her as a child into His family. To bring her into His Kingdom. Forever. How could she not be willing to suffer and bleed and die for Him?

If that's what He asked, she would do it. With the strength He gave her. By the grace He provided. And maybe she would see Him soon, face-to-face.





I was shuddering and cringing when I read this...hurrying on to the next Chapter. And then, in those last few sentences....the ones I put in bold...... That is the key. On my own strength, determination, and courage, I'm gonna be here --> :behindsofa: The absolutely only way I'll ever stand is thru the power of the Holy Spirit with my agreement. That....that I can believe in. .....I still don't want to think about it much. Even if the end result is the glory of God mentioned above in the Romans passage. But...yeah. I'm open to HIM doing what needs doing if that sort of time ever comes to me. [tho I'd realllly rather not, God!] HE has the power to enable us, if we are willing, to stand against such evil that we might encounter. He DOES mean for us to stand against evil.



It still scares me but now I have just a bitty grasp of how it even makes any sense tho. [German-Vulcan-logic type person...y'know :shrug: ]



Edited by Mt_Rider
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