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there are less than 15 per cent of the LDS membership that store food for a year or even grow gardens, some of the older members do and alot of (most) of the young ones do not>>>>.so if any one is expecting the members of LDS to feed them boy are they wrong,,,,i would say in my town that is a hand full that have over 4 months and less that have 9 mo worth of food and a few, dang few that have a years worth and that is stretching it......there are other folks out there that have 1-2 years worth and i know a few that have up to 5-10 years worth of any thing that they might need and they do not belong to the LDS church.....TAKE CARE AND KEEP THE FAITH

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There are a lot of LDS in my area. My best friend and neighbor is a member, as is his mom. Mom is always "talking" about food storage. She just put in expensive new carpet. I've been practicing food storage for a number of reasons since Y2K. The main reason is that I am self-employed and if I should become injured, and can't work, it gives me great comfort to know I have a year of food on the shelves. My income is also erratic. Feast or Famine. In Feast, I quadruple my non-perishable grocery shopping. One for the pantry, three for storage. There have been tough times over the last few years when I've dipped into my storage.

 

My friend's mom commented on the cans of food cramed behind all my bookshelves, when she was visiting with the typical "I'll come and see you if there is a crisis." She considers me a second son - I've known her for 15+ years. So I can be blunt. I told her that what she sees is barely enough for my daughter and I and I'll probably have to eat my horses too as I won't have any way to feed them. But I'm sure her expensive new carpet will taste great - and as she's enjoying its light, fluffy texture, she can reflect on how much more important it was to her than food storage. I'm not sharing. She looked at her son, my best friend, for support. He said "don't look at me, I agree with him - and you have no excuse because you've been warned, counseled, coached, and encouraged. You decided last week that your carpet was more important than food - don't expect others to bail you out of your decisions."

 

The question has been asked before on how to balance Christian Charity with making tough decisions on who eats what you've stored. My response then was the same as it is now - no useless mouths. When the rains came, Noah sealed up the door of the Arc. It is ruthless, not cruel. Understanding the distinction is critical to reconciling hard decisions. Those who knew the flood was coming have less room to complain than the truly helpless sheep. I've gone without a lot of nice things for many years so that I can have the comfort of an edible 401K. Thousands and Thousands of dollars for three categories - wet pack (cans), dry pack (bulk grains, et al), and portable (MRE's freezedried, etc.).

 

Others made their adult decisions. The way I see it, if I'm right, they starve and I don't. If I'm wrong, I'll have small grocery bills for years. In either case, we get to enjoy our decisions.

Edited by Gunplumber
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I'm LDS and I have always been taught that you are to give of your excess freely. Excess means you keep what you need to support your family and give the rest. I would not hesitate to share my food etc with others. I stock extra for this reason. ALthough i must admit it stings a little to see people who have a fancy house, boat and nice cars who do not store food, knowing I'll have to help them. We just had a family in our ward like this who laughed off prepping and called me full of doom and gloom, he husband got laid off last week from a very high paying job. All of the sudden she's very interested in food storage and being frugal.

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there are less than 15 per cent of the LDS membership that store food for a year or even grow gardens, some of the older members do and alot of (most) of the young ones do not>>>>.so if any one is expecting the members of LDS to feed them boy are they wrong,,,,i would say in my town that is a hand full that have over 4 months and less that have 9 mo worth of food and a few, dang few that have a years worth and that is stretching it......there are other folks out there that have 1-2 years worth and i know a few that have up to 5-10 years worth of any thing that they might need and they do not belong to the LDS church.....TAKE CARE AND KEEP THE FAITH

 

 

I agree.............

it is one of those things you always hear 'that they are well prepared' but most of the ones I know around here are not doing anything other then a garden for eating fresh now. A few can but again for eating this year only.

 

Like the rest of the world they will wake up just a bit to late to survive. :shrug:

:AmishMichaelstraw:

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I'm LDS and I have always been taught that you are to give of your excess freely. Excess means you keep what you need to support your family and give the rest.

 

How do you determine what is excess when the duration of the event is unknown?

 

 

 

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One of my favorite hymns goes like this...

Because I Have Been Given Much

 

Because I have been given much, I too must give;

Because of thy great bounty, Lord, each day I live;

I shall divide my gifts from thee

With every brother that I see

Who has the need of help from me.

 

Because I have been sheltered, fed by thy good care,

I cannot see another’s lack and I not share

My glowing fire, my loaf of bread,

My roof’s safe shelter overhead,

That he too may be comforted.

 

Because I have been blessed by thy great love, dear Lord,

I’ll share thy love again, according to thy word.

I shall give love to those in need;

I’ll show that love by word and deed:

Thus shall my thanks be thanks indeed.

 

In LDS history there was a lot of suffering becasue of the Extermination order. This story exemplifies the way I feel...

 

At the same time, however, the immigrants were already suffering and dying from cold weather and lack of food. Amy Loader of the Martin company carried a biscuit made from rationed flour “in her pocket and usually gave portions to her young son, Robert, when he became hungry.” Near Fort Laramie, she “came across a man [from their company] who had fallen on the ground and was almost lifeless. She went to him and said, ‘Brother what is the matter, why do you not go on?’ He replied, ‘Sister Loader, I cannot, I am too weak but if I had just one mouthful of bread I believe I could.’ She asked, ‘Do you think so and would you?’ When he replied, ‘Yes,’ she took the bread from her pocket and gave it to him. After eating he arose and was again able to walk.”

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That's a really touching story,and I have read it before, but it doesn't answer my question.

 

I am not talking about mutual assistance for the common good. The handcart companies worked and died together - sharing hardships.

 

Here I'm talking about America in 2010. I work hard to stockpile food at my house against a possible disaster. I encourage my friends and neighbors to do the same, and even show them how a half-day of volunteer work at the cannery will give them access to hugely discounted foods (although I can only recommend the apples, freeze dried beans, and potato pearls).

 

Instead, they buy boats and jetskis and quads and new carpet - enjoying the material value of their success. Then the SHTF. Power is wiped out. There is rioting in the streets. There is no food distribution. The shelves are bare. disease is rampant. Now your foolish and irresponsible neighbors bang on your door - "hey - feed us - because we chose not to plan for ourselves".

 

Sorry - I do not plan on starving or watching my child starve because someone else made an adult decision NOT to prepare.

 

I'd probably feed stray kids as long as they like fajitas de gato and I'm sure there would be something that I could barter food for.

 

But free handouts for the lazy, slothful and foolish? I don't think so.

 

Feed just one and there will be fifty at your door the next day.

Edited by Gunplumber
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As a All Hazards Planner for one of our States in Emergency Managment, I not only does this as a job, but try to live it personally. You can never stockpile too much - rotate. Water is the problem. There will not be enough. Over the past couple of years I have began gathering rain water, use for watering animals, garden and can easily be purified for drinking. Rule of thumb is 8 gallons per person per day, this is for drinking and other use, such as toilets, washing, etc.

 

No one really has the capacity to store this much water and it goes quick. I have in my emergency bin a quart jar of chlorine (bleach) for purifying. It only takes a few drops, which can clarify the muddest of water.

 

My concern that I share throughout my job is the water. I advised everyone to keep some extra food stored. I am always surprised how many people have never thought about what would happen. Our slogan "every emergency is a local emergency". In others words, don't expect help soon, it won't be there. So your emergency is your emergency and please be prepared. There's never "too much" when it comes to stockpiling.

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That's a really touching story,and I have read it before, but it doesn't answer my question.

 

I am not talking about mutual assistance for the common good. The handcart companies worked and died together - sharing hardships.

 

Here I'm talking about America in 2010. I work hard to stockpile food at my house against a possible disaster. I encourage my friends and neighbors to do the same, and even show them how a half-day of volunteer work at the cannery will give them access to hugely discounted foods (although I can only recommend the apples, freeze dried beans, and potato pearls).

 

Instead, they buy boats and jetskis and quads and new carpet - enjoying the material value of their success. Then the SHTF. Power is wiped out. There is rioting in the streets. There is no food distribution. The shelves are bare. disease is rampant. Now your foolish and irresponsible neighbors bang on your door - "hey - feed us - because we chose not to plan for ourselves".

 

Sorry - I do not plan on starving or watching my child starve because someone else made an adult decision NOT to prepare.

 

I'd probably feed stray kids as long as they like fajitas de gato and I'm sure there would be something that I could barter food for.

 

But free handouts for the lazy, slothful and foolish? I don't think so.

 

Feed just one and there will be fifty at your door the next day.

I would simply say, what would Jesus do? If we a reliving a truely self sufficiant life we would not only have a year supply, but the means to obtain more, through gardening or wild foraging.

 

As for me and my family I would hope that we would be at our bug out property by them time that thing get really crazy. If not I would not hesitate to share with my neighbors, none of which are LDS.

 

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As for me and my family I would hope that we would be at our bug out property by them time that thing get really crazy. If not I would not hesitate to share with my neighbors, none of which are LDS.

 

That is of course, your choice. I do not want to tell my child she has to starve because I was so generous in giving away her food to any parasite that banged on the door. Furthermore, I submit that the moment you say "that's it, the rest is for us," your neighbors will break your door down and take it by force. Or don't you watch the news? It doesn't take much for your lovely neighbors to become riotous looters. I hope with your food you have guns and ammo and the will to use them - otherwise it isn't your food anymore - it belongs to whoever chooses to take it from you.

 

This is what I mean by "ruthless". I believe that "good" people will be stampeded because they lack the will to defend what is theirs.

 

WWJD? That silly. He'd wave his hand and there would be food for everyone. Maybe a better question would be what would Malachi do?

 

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"One brutally cold winter, a snake knocked on the door of a house occupied by a little mouse. The mouse yelled out, "Who is it?" and the snake answered, "It's me, the snake. Can I come in? It's freezing out here."

 

The mouse asserted, "No you can't come in. Snakes eat mice. If I let you in, you'll eat me."

 

The snake insisted, "I promise that I won't eat you. I'm just cold and want to come in for the night."

 

The two went back and forth many times before the mouse finally relented. The snake came into the house and immediately ate the mouse.

 

The moral of the story: You can't change a being's essential nature. So be very, very careful before you let someone into your house or into your heart."

 

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True, but tell me could you watch your neighbors starve to death? Watch their children want for food? I say you can not be a true follower of Christ if you do not give freely of all your worldly posessions. Let those who do wrong answer to the Lord for their wrong doings. "As for me and my house we will serve the Lord. Joshua 24:15"

 

If people are meaning to do my family harm, I would not hesitate to protect my family. I am not niave to that .

Edited by FunkyPioneer
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With all due respect, stepping up and sitting on His throne and dictating who and who is not one of His children, is not something I think He'd be happy about.

 

There's been times He's laid on my heart to do the most outrageous things...I thought it was nuts and so did everyone around me, but looking back, He was obviously right and that path was filled with grace and protection. That is not a path He asks everyone to walk however.

 

This is just a reminder that it's ok to agree to disagree. We're all responsible for our own choices and one day will stand alone before Him and give an account of those choices.

 

Debate is good, debate is healthy, debate can be a useful teaching tool. I'm not saying anyone is, but there's no reason to get up from the debate table all upset because someone sees things different than another.

 

I do know that we sit here, trying to project the best we can, into a future that will hold heartbreaking surprises and totally unexpected events. I knew the housing crash was coming before it came, but I never dreamed all the details that have happened, would have happened. That taught me that while I project into the future and prepare accordingly, it's going to end up playing out far different than I can invision.

 

Some people will open their arms to those that will suffer...some will be blessed for it, and some will die because of that.

 

Some people will try to close their doors to the outside, and there will be benefits and heartbreaking consequences to that too.

 

I have a general game plan that I've laid out for myself and my family, but I also know that He might modify what *I* choose to blend it in with what He has chosen.

 

There's where things get personal and aren't open to other people's critiques. I answer to Him for my life, not anyone else, and I learned a few years ago how to stand alone with Him, regardless of what people think or say. Other people will do it there way, but there you have it. I've said how I see things, and even though I believe I'm right (lol), I'm not responsible for what other people decide and leave it at that.

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Darlene is right. We all have to do what we have to do and we alone are going to answer for our actions. I don't want to get into a fight about what the Bible means etc. but I do want to share a couple of thoughts. Firstly, I would be one of the first people to step up and share anything I have with people during a short term situation like a blizzard, flood, tornado or anything like that because that is the right thing to do in my mind and I can replenish what I have shared. On the other hand I am reminded of Jesus leaving this earth and that he said that he had to leave because they looked to him to do miracles and didn't learn to do their own. Another example would be Noah and the ArK. How many perished by their own stupidity or laziness when Jesus left? How many perished when Noah closed the doors to the Ark? Was he to let them all aboard and sink the Ark? How many will perish if you take care of your own and expect them to do the same? Isn't it all the same thing? We are taught to share but we are also taught to share our knowledge which we all are doing right here on this board and hopefully each day at home. When is it time to close the door to the Ark or leave the people because they refuse to help themselves? We are taught to take care of our family. Why do we choose to just accept part of the teachings, the ones that make us feel good about ourselves and want to shut out the teachings that tell us there is a time that people have to suffer the consequences of their own deeds and we can't do it for them. We are responsible for our own first.

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There's been times He's laid on my heart to do the most outrageous things...I thought it was nuts and so did everyone around me, but looking back, He was obviously right and that path was filled with grace and protection. That is not a path He asks everyone to walk however.

 

Some people will open their arms to those that will suffer...some will be blessed for it, and some will die because of that.

 

Some people will try to close their doors to the outside, and there will be benefits and heartbreaking consequences to that too.

 

I have a general game plan that I've laid out for myself and my family, but I also know that He might modify what *I* choose to blend it in with what He has chosen.

 

I believe that we will never know exactly how we will react to the various scenarios that could play out....because we may prepare to the best of our abilities and have a basic plan for food storage, protection, shelter, etc...

 

Only each of us individually knows how we will respond to the needs around us and what and where we are led by our own religious beliefs. I know my neighbors know I have a well....will I share and to what extent.....Probably with those in close proximity. There are not many houses in the general vicinity. And, others also have wells. We all live on 5 acre tracts and have various skills. Barter may be part of the plan.

 

I believe the Lord will lead me to do his wishes and I hope I will be able to meet them. Because I feel I am who I am and where I am because of his part in my life.

 

But, debate is a good thing.....it makes us think...and look at alternatives.

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When Christ told his disciples to buy a sword - what do you think the sword was for?

 

When he knocked down the temple and threw out the money changers, was he using violence to accomplish his goal?

 

I wouldn't want to watch my neighbors starve, but I'd rather watch them starve then myself and child.

 

But then I've been hungry. Not missed lunch hungry but eyes sunken in their sockets lost 30 pounds of muscle hungry, from 60 days of food and sleep deprivation. I've seen what certain people, not just of the ghetto culture, can become with even a short absence of societal guidance.

 

Grownups get to live the consequences of their choices.

 

It is really touching and beautiful that you'd share your last food with a mob of total strangers with no idea where you'll find your next meal and whether your altruism will result in the death of yourself and family.

 

I'm not sure that's virtue.

 

The Mormon settlers were able to get a lot of communal work done because they were highly motivated by a shared belief. Event hen they lost half their numbers crossing the plains. And they not only had to deal with the elements but with government proclaimed extermination orders. The companies were based on a religious hierarchy, but it was a military type leadership system nonetheless.

 

I value myself more than my neighbor. I value my daughter more than myself. I will act accordingly. I suspect that others, when they are introduced to REAL hunger, will revise their sunny-day Christian charity, but only time will tell.

 

My decision to store food isn't just for personal sustenance. It is a bank account. I can use it to leverage other people into doing my will when paper money is used in the privy. I just may have to use starvation as a motivator to get people working on their own survival. Is using pain, starvation and other coercion to force someone else to survive a virtue?

 

 

And by the way, as I was corrected before, it was not Noah who closed up the arc, but God. This is important really, because it absolved Noah from making that decision on who lives and who dies. Unfortunately, there may be nobody to absolve us from that decision. That's why I encourage people to explore the difference between cruel and ruthless. The time for mental preparation is before the crises.

Edited by Gunplumber
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God said to get ready. Noah listened and his neighbors laughed at him. We feel inspired to prep and our neighbors laugh. How or even why would anyone expect that the outcome should be any different this time?

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I have been reading this thread with interest, because I can see both sides of the debate. I don't know how I would act in a situation like this -- I agree that nobody does, until they are in it -- but I have to say that my personal belief is that charity needs to be backed up with the big guns. That is, after all, why we don't discuss our preps with others who are not prepping themselves (a lesson that seems to be a HARD one for my DH to keep in mind!!!) -- it's simply too dangerous to have it widely known that you have your own "grocery store" when the SHTF. People can and WILL do desperate things in desperate times. Just as I would turn someone away, knowing that starvation is a real threat for them, in order to make sure that my children will have enough to eat, someone whose children are at risk for starvation would do harm to me and my family in order to feed their kids.

 

This is not fun to think about. It is so beyond the ken of most Americans -- and many others in the first-world countries. I think that if one is willing to hand out "care packages" of food, it needs to be done with the total understanding that this is a one-time event, while holding a BIG GUN with the safety OFF, and making sure that the recipient knows to MOVE ON after the food is given to them. That still won't prevent them from coming back in desperation, and who knows where that would lead? How would it feel to have to shoot someone that you previously had saved? Good Lord, it's hard to even imagine.

 

I think that I wouldn't have as hard a time denying a portion of my preps to a previously able adult who simply chose to ignore the signs of difficulty ahead and refused to prepare. On the other hand, it would be TERRIBLY difficult for me to see an unaccompanied child and not provide for them. That would kill my soul. That is where I think the issue dissolves into a case-by-case basis, straddling the fine line of what your conscience provokes you to do and what maintains relative safety and plenty for your family.

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it would be TERRIBLY difficult for me to see an unaccompanied child and not provide for them.

 

I agree - I'd take in and feed unaccompanied children as I could - and then put them to work on perimeter security, sandbagging, and hauling water from the canal. They are malleable and easier to train.

 

It is the adult who knew and chose not to heed, who has squandered away my compassion.

 

 

 

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God said to get ready. Noah listened and his neighbors laughed at him. We feel inspired to prep and our neighbors laugh. How or even why would anyone expect that the outcome should be any different this time?

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it would be TERRIBLY difficult for me to see an unaccompanied child and not provide for them. That would kill my soul.

 

 

While I feel the same regarding a helpless child, I'd be very cautious with helping any child in general. That "helpless child" could be used as a means for others of his/her family to gain access to your provisions. I've heard a few stories about this happening from kin who live deep in the boonies. I don't know how true it is since it's something they heard from someone else. But when you think about it, it is the best way for predators to gain access with the least amount of effort. Who would deny food and shelter to a helpless looking child? Hopefully, that wouldn't be the case, but you never know and one should always be on guard for anything and everything.

 

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good point. like the "honeypot ambush".

 

That beautiful woman on the side of the road doesn't really have a flat tire. She's bait.

 

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Sorry I wasn't trying to be holier than thou, just being a little idealistic. ;0) BEtter safe than sorry is a good motto. I do know for a fact that ward lists are sold at gun shows so that bad people know where to go to find food storage.

 

As for noah's ark a funny story...

BOOK OF GOMER PARABLE

These are the generations of Gomer, son of Homer, son of Omer. And in the days of Gomer, Noah,

the Prophet, went unto the people saying, "Prepare ye for the flood which is to come, yea, build your-

selves a boat, that ye may not perish."

Now, Gomer was a member of the Church, and taught Sunday School and played, yea, even on the

ward softball team. And Gomer's wife said unto him, "Come, let us build unto ourselves a boat as the

Prophet commandeth, that we may not perish in the flood." But behold, Gomer saith unto his wife,

"Worry not, dear wife, for if the flood comes the government will provide boats for us."

And Gomer did not build a boat. And Gomer's wife went unto Noah and she returned saying, "Be-

hold, Honey, the Prophet saith unto us, "Build a boat, that we may preserve ourselves, for the govern-

ment pays men not to grow trees, wherefore the government hath not the lumber to build for you a boat."

And Gomer answered saying, "Fear not, oh wife, for am I not the star pitcher on the ward softball team?

Wherefore, the Church will provide for us a boat, that we will perish not."

And Gomer's wife went again unto Noah, and she returned unto Gomer, saying, "Behold, mine hus-

band, the Prophet saith that the Church hath not enough lumber to build a boat for everyone, where-

fore, mine husband, build for us a boat that we might not perish in the flood." And Gomer answered her

saying, "Behold, if we build a boat, when the flood cometh, will not our neighbors overpower us and take

from us our boat; wherefore, what doth it profit a man to build a boat?"

And Gomer's wife went again unto Noah and she returned, saying, "Behold, the Prophet saith, build

unto yourselves a boat, and have faith, for if ye do the Lord's bidding, He will preserve your boat for

you." But Gomer answered his wife, saying, "Behold, with this inflation, the price of wood has gone sky

high, and if we wait awhile, perhaps the price will go down again. And then I will build for us a boat."

And Gomer's wife went again unto Noah, and she returned saying, "Thus saith the Prophet, build for

yourselves a boat RIGHT NOW, for the price of wood will not go down, but will continue to go up.

Wherefore, oh husband, build for ourselves a boat, that we may perish not." But Gomer answered his

wife, saying, "Behold, for 120 years Noah hath told us to build a boat, to preserve us from the flood,

but hath the flood come? Yea, I say, nay. Wherefore, perhaps the flood will not come for another

hundred and twenty years.

And Gomer's wife went again unto Noah and returned saying, "The Prophet saith, he knows it has

been 120 years, but nevertheless, the flood will come, wherefore, build unto yourselves a boat."

And Gomer answered her saying, "Wherewith shall we get the money to build ourselves a boat, for are

we not now making monthly payments on our snazzy new four horsepower chariot? Wherefore, when our

payments end, perhaps we shall build ourselves a boat."

And Gomer's wife went again unto Noah and returned saying, "Behold, the Prophet saith that we

should cut down on our recreation, and our vacations, and even give each other lumber for Christmas,

that we might thereby get enough lumber to build a boat."

But Gomer saith unto her, "What a drag! Are we to cease enjoying life, just because we must build a

boat?"

Wherefore, Gomer built not a boat. But behold, one afternoon Gomer heard thunder in the sky, and he

feared exceedingly and he ran, yea, even to the lumber yard to buy lumber. But behold, the lumber store

was crowded with great multitudes, all seeking to buy lumber, and there was not enough lumber to be

found for the multitudes.

And on the same day were all the fountains of the deep opened, and the windows of heaven were

broken up, and the floods came -- and behold, Gomer had no boat. And as the water rose above

Gomer's waist, his wife saith unto him, "Behold, Honey, I told thee so!"

--- Author Unknown

Edited by FunkyPioneer
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... WWJD? That's silly. He'd wave his hand and there would be food for everyone. Maybe a better question would be what would Malachi do?

Yeah, Jesus already answered that question, in Matthew 14, 15 and other places. He'd simply take care of the need and feed the people.

 

But with all respect the question, it seems to me, should be "What would Jesus have YOU do?". And, IMHO, there's little chance that the answer to that is static. Further, the answer may not be the same for everyone. Jesus may have the most of us doing one thing, or similar things in the preparation stages, and something totally different when the time comes.

 

As important as preparation for material survival is, and I would never diminish that, I believe it is equally important to be spiritually prepared. When things come down, and especially if they come down suddenly, chances are we'll all be faced with scenarios and immediate decisions that we cannot be totally prepared for. And it's going to be important to be in close relationship with the Lord when that happens, as close to Him as we can possibly be, so that we can hear His voice for direction.

 

There could be little or no time to get to know Him or to get back in relationship with Him. You can't obey if there are no orders. So getting as close as we can to God, by making His Word and our walk with Him a priority is, by far, the greatest part of spiritual preparation. There are other things, of course, one of which is a healthy back-and-forth of tough questions and scenarios, much like the one in this thread. We need to be able to hear God's voice, but we're also human, and our chances of making the best possible decisions in reaction to these unthinkable scenarios are gonna be a lot better if we've already spent some time thinking about them hypothetically.

 

Also, FWIW, it's my personal belief that the more developed these hypothetical scenarios are in our mental preparation, the better we will be able to hear the voice of our Lord in the midst of trouble, panic, or chaos - that we may follow His directives.

 

~~~

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