Religious Tolerance or Intolerance??

[mrszouave]

 

I take the chance of having this deleted by not posting this in Streams In The Desert forum........hopefully not.....

 

I am concerned with Comments made by NanaPop in the Are You Really Ready? forum under Jenna's thread The Downside To Being

And I certainly thought long and hard before making this post....believe me.

The Last thing i want to do is cause trouble.......But when does Religious Tolerance become Religious Intolerance?

 

Having said that Nana Pop has the right to sensor comments in her forum according to guidelines set by the administrators.....

I am unsettled and stirred to comment........maybe it was the tone that made my ears perk but more than likely it was the very insistence that any Christian comment or discussion has only ONE place it will be accepted or tolerated at the site.

 

Quote:

Re: The Downside To Being Prepared

#37535 - 01/27/04 01:19 PM

There will be no debate about Christianity in this forum. I made my comments to address those previously made. This is a forum about preparedness, and discussion of religion belongs in 'Streams in the Desert.' It is unfair to people of other beliefs and it will not be allowed. I will either move or delete any religious discussions, out of respect to others, so please don't take that aspect of this any farther.

According to that statement.......Darlene.....the owner of this board should be reprimanded or deleted by posting this after Nana

Quote:

"Re: The Downside To Being Prepared

#37565 - 01/27/04 11:45 PM Edit Reply Quote

 

 

 

I like what happygirl said about being meek but not stupid.

 

God gave us a brain and a heart. I think that He wouldn't expect us to let insensitive people take advantage of us.

 

 

 

IF we contain every religious discussion to that one forum.......then almost every forum is in violation.

 

Can you ask for GOD or the name of Jesus not be discussed when people pour out their heart in Reporting For Duty and Where the Heart Is Even in DOOL when discussing events that touch their lives?

OR in the The Sunporch When they describe themselves as Christians? Or in the Within These Pages When they discuss a book?

 

I am curious when others such as MM posted describing her Pagan Yule celebration..... nothing was said . (rightly so)

 

So that brings me back to my subject line..........Religious Tolerance or Intolerance??

[Becca_Anne]

You bring up a good point debbielee. I know that I don't pay attention to where I post on here when I mention "prayers". Since that's a general term is it okay? Should I never mention God or our Saviour Jesus Christ? Wow....am I gonna be banned now?

 

mommafitz

[Guest Guest]

Gosh, I just woke up, and ya want me to *THINK*???

 

I guess it's time to address this. I read Nanapop's post last night, and was too tired to write.

 

*IN MY HUMBLE OPINION*:

 

I think the thread was leaning into a discussion of Christan VALUES, which is better left in "Streams In The Desert".

 

However, Jenna described the situation and asked the question about what, as a Christian, she might have done in that situation. (That's ok, too.)

 

I think Nana was trying to head off someone who didn't believe in the "Golden Rule" of the Bible coming in and crushing all discussion, plus hurting more feelings in the process. We've had too much of that in the past.

 

If her words sounded harsh to those who are relatively new, please understand that we "old timers" have seen good people get hurt and we try not to allow it. We try to protect *everyone*'s dignity.

 

Nanapop is a strong woman, and her words reflect that. She was reiterating her firm stance on keeping the info in that forum *on topic*.

 

She said, "There will be no debate about Christianity in this forum." Notice "DEBATE ABOUT", please. That's the key.

 

Hey, we who believe in God will always make passing references to Him in our lives. It's who we are.

 

If others who have other beliefs refer to (not discuss in detail) their beliefs, I'm ok with that. I might privately ask them about it, or engage them in discussion in "Streams", but not change the topic of the thread then & there.

 

Please feel free to contact me if you disagree or have another view. I'm here for you.

[Guest Guest]

I'm with Cat on this one...it's too early to think...lol

 

Long story short for those that may not be aware of some history that occurred long ago...

 

Many, many years ago there was a huge argument between 2 factions of people here at MrsSurvival that both felt very strongly...it quite honestly, got way outta control and many people were hurt by it.

 

Now, MountainMommy and I could not be more polarized in our beliefs, yet it was in the middle of that devestating conflict that we met, and became life long friends.

 

Those of us that went through that have made a committment to our *home* here to never allow anything like that to happen again, which is why periodically you might see someone feeling concern and drawing lines to circumvent a major conflict.

 

I agree with Cat...I think nana's concern was a *debate* over a simple and innocent coment. NObody's done anything wrong or inappropriate. Everyone just expressed how they felt. My comment over there is my belief and how I feel, and that's ok for any of us to share in any of the forums we have here at this site. I'm just not gonna debate or pick apart or confront anyone if they disagree with my belief. I personally believe that's what nana's concerns were.

 

Everyone please relax and not misunderstand or take any of this personally. The MOST important thing is that we all feel safe enough and free enough to just be ourselves. THAT is what has been the most special thing about MrsSurvival all these years...the ability of people from diverse backgrounds to come together and *rub elbows*, being respectful of differing opinions, working together to share the knowledge they have to prepare for a sometimes uncertain future.

 

And as Cat said, if you have any concerns or need to talk, please feel free to PM me too.

 

Let's please get back to what we all do best, bringing hope, support, understanding and sunshine into the lives that hit those *bumps* in the road.

[Guest Guest]

Hi all.

 

I want to comment..... as a Pagan, I *could* be offended by Christian comments and such in the forums, but I choose not to be. What's the point? Christians have the right to their views and beliefs. So do I. I won't force my beliefs on them, and they shouldn't force theirs on me. (Posting stuff about the Christian God is *not* forcing their views on me unless they are speaking directly to me, and trying to convince me *I* am wrong.) The only time I've ever had a problem is when a post is made that either attacks what I believe, or my right to have different beliefs.

 

I haven't read the post in question, so I can't comment. But general comments on the boards that come from a belief system...... I have no problem with that.

 

On my signature, I have the symbol of the Goddess. I have a link to my Pagan site. I'd hope no one would take offense. Maybe some have, but no one here ever said anything *to me*.

 

So, I say, live and let live.

 

Let the Christians be Christians, and let the non-Christians be non-Christians. Their views are going to come across in their posts anyway..... no big deal.

 

It's only a big deal if we *make* it a big deal.

 

And yes, religious intolerance can work both ways.

 

In as much as I'm a voice for those who are *persecuted* for being Pagan, I will also say that I don't agree with persecuting *Christians*. (Not saying that's happened in this case, as I said, I didn't read the post.)

[Linda]

well dar and cat .. for being to earilt to think you both did a good job ....

 

i love this place and one of the reasons is just that, we can be who we are, no matter how we believe. what i believe is who i am.

 

there is very often mention "i will pray for you" and i think that is great. but if some one was to say I will light a candle for you or I will sing for you or I will dance for you to have betterment. who am i to tell them no when they would be offering their best to help out. and it would be from the heart.

 

I enjoyed reading about how MM celerbrated the holiday's that is part of her.

and when there was the post about other holiday's and how they where started and why from other belifes i found them to be interesting. ... I am storng enough in what i belive in that i can except others will all but one and i do have the freedom to not respond or walk away from it.

like i said i love this place and the differance in each person; I do enjoy reading nanapops post and you can tell she is a strong lady; but i don't think she means to hurt anyone.

 

a nickle is still worth 5 cents no matter what side you look at.

 

love to all

thyra

[Guest Guest]

Wow. I've never been accused of being intolerant of other beliefs, until today. To read that I'm being intolerant of Christianity is really unsettling. Especially since I stated in my post that I am a Christian.

 

Although I've never taken formal instruction of any religion other than my own, I've done a lot of reading about many different faiths, and I find them all fascinating. There are so many similarities in many religions, that it amazes me that people hate and even kill over the differences.

 

The pure definition of a bigot is someone who is intolerant of anyone unlike themselves.

 

I've never considered myself a bigot. There are times when I have thoughts about other races, religions or beliefs that make me uneasy, and I force myself to look long and hard at what I consider to be the problem, so that I can rid myself of those ugly feelings. I remind myself that I am the last person in the world that can afford to be prejudiced or bigoted, considering the diversity of my family and my ethnic background. Along with the ethnic diversity, comes many different faiths.

 

I have never been ashamed of who I am, where I came from, or who my ancestors were. I can and do claim every race possible, except Asian, because that is the total makeup of my racial background. Along with that comes many different religious beliefs.

 

I think I was about 15 years old when I realized that one person cannot change the heart or mind of another, simply by shouting louder. It was then that I decided to never debate religion or politics.

 

Several years ago, here on Mrs Survival, there was a war brewing on the topic of President Clinton. Some posts were so vile, I was in shock, and believe me, it takes a lot to shock me! Somehow, the political crossed into the religious, and the resulting melee was horrifying!

 

I made a huge mistake, and broke my own rule. In an innocent attempt to calm a really volitile situation, I asked a question about judgement, and made reference to a Biblical quote. In less than an hour, I was vilified. I was told in no uncertain terms that if I was a Christian, as I claimed to be, not only was I supposed to make judgements, it was my Christian duty to do so! Had I been a weaker person, that would have been enough to shake the very foundation of my beliefs. I watched as people did everything short of calling each other out for a duel. I even got several emails telling me what I was supposed to think and feel, and how I was supposed to act, again, if I was really a Christian.

 

The most frightening aspect of that entire fiasco was that had these people been in a 'real time', face-to-face debate, someone may have gotten killed. It was just that ugly.

 

Since that time, I have stayed out of those types of discussions. I learned that zealots and fanatics will never hear another persons point of view, and will verbally try to beat you to death with theirs. We also have proof positive in the world around us, that zealots and fanatics will also kill.

 

I'm not sure of the exact date, but sometime around Thanksgiving, I asked Darlene if we could have a new forum, and call it Santa Central. I used that name specifically because I didn't want to offend anyone who didn't celebrate the birth of Christ.

 

I included posts that discussed other types of winter celebrations and Holidays, in different parts of the world. I spent hours searching the internet to glean information, to teach about other cultures and religions. I tried to include everyone's faith, that I was aware of, and I encouraged others to post their family traditions.

 

Still, some people were hurt by comments made, or made to feel that their celebrations were not worthy of notation. That really bothered me, but I wasn't sure what to do about it. I think I got too busy for a couple of days, and I dropped the ball, so to speak. I thought it had worked itself out. Apparently, from some things I learned at a later date, I was wrong.

 

 

 

Quote:

I am unsettled and stirred to comment........maybe it was the tone that made my ears perk but more than likely it was the very insistence that any Christian comment or discussion has only ONE place it will be accepted or tolerated at the site.

 

I never said anything about Christian comments or discussion having only one place at this site. I said no debate about Christianity belonged in the preparedness forum. I get so tired of seeing people hurt for no good reason, other than a difference in opinion.

 

There needs to be a clear set of guidelines in place, to offset the posibility of another war on religion. It was never my intention to create a problem, I was truly attempting to divert one.

 

I have spent countless thousands of hours researching and posting information for the members of Mrs Survival. I have never once, been paid a single penny for my efforts.

 

I apologize for any misunderstandings caused by my post, but I will not apologize for trying to avert a disaster.

 

I am surprised that my words were misunderstood by someone I would have thought knew me a little better. Debbielee, you and I have had a long and good relationship, or so I thought.

 

You're right about one thing though. I don't make the rules around here, I'm just supposed to uphold them.

 

I would never intentionally hurt someone here, or anywhere else, for that matter, but I do have a tendency to call people on the carpet, if I think they are wrong.

 

Maybe it's time for me to think about stepping down. I don't think I have the energy for this anymore.

[Guest Guest]

Misunderstandings happen with the printed word. If we were all face-to-face, there'd be laughter & hugs.

 

Debbielee raised an issue that needed to be clarified, not just for her, but (most likely) for many others out there who never dared to post.

 

It is a fair & honest question, and thank you, Nanapop, for confirming what Darlene & I know about you and how you feel.

 

Part of a Moderator's *job* is to head off potential problems, and promote understanding in their forums. You're doing that, Nana. Thank you. {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Nanapop}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

 

As for Jenna, please don't feel afraid to post... you didn't do anything *wrong*; Nana was just seeing the entire thread headed into an area away from the original topic "preparedness".

 

I'm really interested in exploring this idea further. Would you join me in "Streams" to discuss the "Golden Rule" and how you've dealt with it *practically* in your lives?

 

[Guest Guest]

Mmmmmmm.........I've read and re-read this thread a few times, trying to decide if and what I should post. I'm one of those who don't dare respond, since I'm not much good at debating.

Please know that whatever I write is written with the purest intentions of my heart.

Nana, I personally don't think Debbielee called you a bigot. I didn't see that in her post, and would hate for you to be hurt or offended by something she didn't mean. I should allow her to speak for herself about this, but just wanted to make that observation.

I also felt bad about your remarks. The reason was because I felt as though in escence(sp?) you were saying that any religious talk belonged in the "Streams". I saw no debate, just comments on what we felt that Jenna should do. I didn't feel like we were being unfair to people of other religions, because I wouldn't feel like it was unfair if it was a Muslim (or Pagan, or any other religion) asking what they should do in that situation according to their beliefs. I might not have answered, not because I was offended, but because I don't necessarily know their religion and wouldn't know what to answer. I'm a Christian, so I answered in the best way I knew how.

So now my question is this: are we allowed, as members or moderators, to write anything religious (whatever religion applies) anywhere other than in the "Streams" forum? Because I feel as though in the effort to protect Mrs. Survival, we would be killing it's members. Christianity is a part of me, and I can't (and won't) filter it out. I don't expect anyone else to do so either. At the same time, I don't feel as though I go around hitting people in the head with a Bible. I have answered a question with a Biblical anwser before, but only because it was either asked for or I felt like the Bible had been misquoted. If I (or anyone else) ever misquoted from another religious book (or any book!), I would also want to be corrected.

I don't think any religion has been attacked. I think Jenna's question about what to do about a neighbor that didn't prepare and what her religious duty was were just fine. It would be unfair for Ginger to say that she would move or delete anything that didn't "only" have to do with Christianity in her forum. As humans I believe that we are complex and it'd be impossible to separate everything in our lives.

Again, I'm not trying to hurt, disrespect or offend anyone here. Nana, I've never question your devotion to Mrs. Survival, and admire your assertiveness (sp?) to protect the site. I thought you might want to know that......

[mrszouave]

This is why I thought long and hard whether to post or not..........hurt feelings.

Nana's hurt feelings.......Which I never intended!

 

It certainly was not in any way, my intention to malign Nana the person......I certainly was not questioning Nana's integrity or faith........... . No NO NO!

 

It was however a comment on Nana in her moderator role in this particular instance.

 

Simply put.........

It was my opinion that Nana jumped the gun...squelching a problem that simply did not exist...... thus my comments and questions.

 

I understand the reasoning behind her intentions...and the reasons for the standing rules here at Mrs. S.......as I stated earlier. That was not the issue.

 

In my post I copied ,in bold letters, what i thought was the issue........it was not debating Christianity.......it was merely the fact that any comments regarding Christianity and faith must be relegated to one forum.......... was again Illustrated by Cat, saying this.

 

Quote:

I'm really interested in exploring this idea further. Would you join me in "Streams"

 

In Nana's words....

Quote:

.discussion of religion belongs in 'Streams in the Desert.' It is unfair to people of other beliefs and it will not be allowed.

 

Is that religious Tolerance for ALL?

 

That was my question and reasoning for my post.

[Guest Guest]

debbielee, I understood that your bold quotes were what you understood to be the issue. That's why I pointed out the "debate" part.

 

I think there's a big difference in a "Christian discussion" and mentioning prayer or talking about God as part of *my* personality in print.

 

I really *AM* interested in the Golden Rule discussion. I tend to be less "giving" because I have trouble trusting people's motives. I want to have a *discussion* about the actual Christian idea of giving without expecting anything in return.

 

*SIGH*

 

No one's gonna delete our love for Christ. It shines through us when it's there.

 

[Guest Guest]

You know, at the risk of offending some or all, I have to say that I'm getting increasingly aggravated with this thread.

 

I am NOT upset at the INDIVIDUALS, I'm getting REALLY UPSET with the limitations with the written word.

 

Here we have a group of very caring and genuine women who are getting hurt and confused and upset not so much that people are saying what is on their minds, but because we're all very limited here. I can't see the hurt or offense on your face. I can't hear the frustration or indignation in your voice. I can't see how your sitting or standing and read your body language.

 

All I have is the bare bones. The written word.

 

What is happening here is exactly what I talked about in my earlier post about NOT wanting to happen. Things are being taken to left field and emphasis is being put where is was never meant. Feelings are being compromised, long standing friendships are being shaken a little to see if they'll fall by the wayside.

 

For WHAT?

 

I think because we all sometimes forget how limited we are here on the net. It's easy to reach out to someone when we're not feeling threatened, but how many of us can do that when we feel we're under attack, or misunderstood or feel someone's saying something that they never intended to be taken that way?

 

All I know is that my mind is racing and I have about 27 paragraphs wizzing through my head at the moment and I'm trying very hard not to write them. I'm trying to maintain my self control and not fall prey to *venting* in the written word.

 

I care about ya'll too much, and I care about MrsSurvival too much to let ME get in the way.

 

If there is some confusion with some of the members here, lemme take a moment to hopefuly help clarify...

 

I am a Christian, Jesus is my Lord. We have many, many others who don't believe as I do. I value them just as much as I value those that believe like minded. I respect them just as much and we need and want them here just as much. If I go into the Homesteading forum and see something that sparks a desire to pray for that person, I will feel free to let them know that is what I plan to do. I will pray the way I believe and others are free to do that the way they believe. I don't believe there should be any censorship in an expression here or there in the various forums. I do feel that any indepth questioning or clarification or conversation would best be served in Streams in the Desert...that is why we brought that forum here.

 

I'd like to draw a line and inform everyone that nobody's stepping down and nobody's leaving but that is not my place...that is everyone's personal decision. I do feel though that we must, at all cost, even if we have to bite our tongue now and again, preserve what's really at stake. It's not you and it's not me.

 

It's our *home*.

 

*sigh*

 

As I keep saying, if something I said strikes you wrong, feel free to PM me and discuss it with me. If something I said confuses you, please feel free to do the same. If you disagree with me, PM me. If you have nothing to say, PM me.

 

I'm willing to listen.

[PatiSue]

I would like to give my thoughts on this for two reasons. One is because I know what Debbielee was feeling--I was a bit stunned by the reply that religious discussion will not be allowed, that it will offend others. I COMPLETELY agree about keeping debate out of the mix, but one of the words used was "discussion" and the reason given was because it would offend others. I honestly thought that *I* was being referred to (blame it on the fact that I have declared myself queen of all I survey, and therefore EVERYTHING revolves around me lolol) because I answered the question about what was expected as a Christian and quoted Scripture. I went farthest in terms of Christian discussion. Now, I did not take offense, I was not stung or hurt. I did think it was rather brusque (I even went back and re read, thinking I had missed something), but some people have that style. That is ok!! Did I feel it was bigoted? Not one bit. Did I think it was rather politically correct? Honestly, yes. I did not see even a SHADOW of debate starting.

 

HOWEVER I am also a newcomer to this group, though not to boards, and I have been a moderator in other places. It is a DURN hard job. AND thankless. AND murky. You try so hard to "not let things get out of hand (for the eighth time this week....)", and every decision you make makes SOMEONE unhappy. Apparently this group has been stung by division and quarrel before, and I can see why a tendency toward being extra protective would be natural and perhaps necessary. While I might have preferred a different delivery, the INTENTION was true and honest, IMO.

 

However, I also think the questions brough up were fair ones--EXACTLY how much is allowed to be said about our faith, where EXACTLY is it allowed to be said, and will every religion be treated the same way? I have a bit of a tough skin--especially since I am new. However, it would be nice to know what will and will not be allowed. My own, TOTALLY not asked for suggestion, would be to allow everyone the right to post their own beliefs, but as soon as people start scrapping, to admonish them privately and remove the message. If someone is offended by the mere MENTION of the word God, then perhaps they are just a bit touchy--the world cannot be the way we want it all the time. As long as no one is trying to beat them over the head with the Good Book (by forcing one's beliefs on them), I would suggest that the person might just be....well...again, touchy.

 

I think that emotions are running high on this because many people (including me) were assuming things that were not actually meant. I am not being publically flayed, nanapop is not a bigot, etc. I think that fair questions were asked as to what will be tolerated and why some things will or will not, or have or have not, been tolerated.

 

If I may (like anyone can stop me now BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

 

A.

[Guest Guest]

Wow.

 

Awesome post Atro...

 

Thank you, and thank you to everyone that has risked sharing their thoughts and opinions on this.

 

*now may I please be the tread killer on this post?*

 

rofl

[Guest Guest]

No! LOL. Oh heck, I don't NEED to post; I had planned to say something last night when I saw this... but was too exhausted. The job of moderating and owning a site like this is mind-boggling, horrendously time-consuming, and it is a thankless (THANKLESS) job. It's important to remember "we can agree to disagree" and also to remember to respect everyone's points of view, even when they don't agree with our own.

 

By the time I read this entire post last night, all I could think of was "GOOD GRIEF! Let's move on." This is too tiring. Everything's been said - at LEAST once, if not more. We've seen where this can lead... we've been through it in the past and saw it tear our membership up. I don't want to see that again. This is supposed to be (in my opinion) a place to come, visit with friends, bare our souls, get advice, and pass along information.

 

I think Cat said it best: "No one's gonna delete our love for Christ. It shines through us when it's there."

 

I love you guys. (Thanks Darlene, for letting me post and thank YOU guys for letting us bunch of wackos post here, ROF.) *Shepherd runs and hides behind the sofa so she doesn't get hit with all the water balloons!

 

 

[Guest Guest]

(((((((((((((((((shephard)))))))))))))))))))

 

You are too cute...lol

 

*darlene dives ontop of the sofa and squirts whip cream in sheppie's hair*

 

lol