Swine flu questions...

[brandys0524]

Ok, I understand how the flu spreads, I understand that it has a high expected mortailty rate, and I understand basic steps I can take to help protect my family.

But where I am getting confused is this..... HOW does the flu [swine or otherwise, does it matter?] Kill you?

From my understanding, in most of the cases, death from the flu is caused in 2 main ways.

1) pneumonia . You get the flu, then it turns into pneumonia, then that will kill you if left untreated. But it was also my understanding, that most broad spectrum antibiotics will kill the pneumonia... so if we got the flu, then got pneumonia, we could take some penniciilan and get better, right? Is there some sort of concern that there won't be enough antibiotics available to treat this? Is this something we should try to stock up on now? Am I just way of course here?

 

2) dehydration.... Diarrhea and vomiting [why did my type change, and how do i fix it?] . That can be controlled with phenagan and over the counter meds, and as long as you keep putting fluids in, I don't see how that can hurt to badly either. Should I ask the doc for a script of phenagen?

 

 

So I guess my question is, is there a different way this flu can harm us? Am I missing something here? I keep searching for HOW its killing its victims, and this was the only info I could find.

 

Does anyone know or can anyone point me in the right direction for more info? Sorry if this has been posted before, my search fu isn't that great, but I did look and could not find anything like this.

 

Thanks,

Brandy

[Jakk]

Ok, I understand how the flu spreads, I understand that it has a high expected mortailty rate, and I understand basic steps I can take to help protect my family.

But where I am getting confused is this..... HOW does the flu [swine or otherwise, does it matter?] Kill you?

From my understanding, in most of the cases, death from the flu is caused in 2 main ways.

1) pneumonia . You get the flu, then it turns into pneumonia, then that will kill you if left untreated. But it was also my understanding, that most broad spectrum antibiotics will kill the pneumonia... so if we got the flu, then got pneumonia, we could take some penniciilan and get better, right? Is there some sort of concern that there won't be enough antibiotics available to treat this? Is this something we should try to stock up on now? Am I just way of course here?

 

2) dehydration.... Diarrhea and vomiting [why did my type change, and how do i fix it?] . That can be controlled with phenagan and over the counter meds, and as long as you keep putting fluids in, I don't see how that can hurt to badly either. Should I ask the doc for a script of phenagen?

 

 

So I guess my question is, is there a different way this flu can harm us? Am I missing something here? I keep searching for HOW its killing its victims, and this was the only info I could find.

 

Does anyone know or can anyone point me in the right direction for more info? Sorry if this has been posted before, my search fu isn't that great, but I did look and could not find anything like this.

 

Thanks,

Brandy

 

I believe pneumonia is the big killer. It gets down deep into the lungs and makes it hard to breathe. Thousands of people right this minute are on a ventilator to help them breathe due to pneumonia. If I am correct, antibiotics will take care of bacterial pneumonia, but not viral pneumonia.

 

I have also read many stories of organ failure. The kidneys shut down , the liver gets attacked and then its just a matter of time.

 

I know antibiotics are controversial, I am not a doctor and I dont play one online, but I have a large stash of several antibiotics as well as Tamiflu for my entire family. I stocked up on ones we have used before and also broad spectrim antibiotics. I have the name of the antibiotic, the dosage for both adult and child and what it is used for written out on an index card and kept with the medication. That is the one thing no one had in 1918, and probably could have saved many many thousands of people.

 

I had the flu the first week of June. The Dr gave me Tamiflu and also Tamiflu for everyone in my family. No one else caught it, so I still have the Tamiflu that they didnt need. Antibiotics I bought online.

 

[SlingMama]

I've been poking around trying to find out what the "big deal" is about the current swine flu. Appears the panic is because this strain is very similar to the 1918 flu.

New flu resembles feared 1918 virus: study http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/...=22&sp=true

"The new H1N1 influenza virus bears a disturbing resemblance to the virus strain that caused the 1918 flu pandemic, with a greater ability to infect the lungs than common seasonal flu viruses, researchers reported on Monday."

 

 

So why is it disturbing that the virus resembles the 1918 strain?

 

According to Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu "Among the conclusions of this research is that the virus kills via a cytokine storm (overreaction of the body's immune system) which explains its unusually severe nature and the concentrated age profile of its victims. The strong immune systems of young adults ravaged the body, whereas the weaker immune systems of children and middle-aged adults caused fewer deaths."

 

A cytokine storm is:

"When the immune system is fighting pathogens, cytokines signal immune cells such as T-cells and macrophages to travel to the site of infection. In addition, cytokines activate those cells, stimulating them to produce more cytokines. Normally, this feedback loop is kept in check by the body. However, in some instances, the reaction becomes uncontrolled, and too many immune cells are activated in a single place. The precise reason for this is not entirely understood but may be caused by an exaggerated response when the immune system encounters a new and highly pathogenic invader. Cytokine storms have potential to do significant damage to body tissues and organs. If a cytokine storm occurs in the lungs, for example, fluids and immune cells such as macrophages may accumulate and eventually block off the airways, potentially resulting in death."

 

 

If H1N1 is similar to the 1918 flu (which is appears it is because the elderly that appear to have some immunity to the current strain) then this is bad, bad news. Again from Wiki:

"This huge death toll (3% to 6% of the entire global population died) was caused by an extremely high infection rate of up to 50% and the extreme severity of the symptoms, suspected to be caused by cytokine storms. Indeed, symptoms in 1918 were so unusual that initially influenza was misdiagnosed as dengue, cholera, or typhoid. One observer wrote, "One of the most striking of the complications was hemorrhage from mucous membranes, especially from the nose, stomach, and intestine. Bleeding from the ears and petechial hemorrhages in the skin also occurred." The majority of deaths were from bacterial pneumonia, a secondary infection caused by influenza, but the virus also killed people directly, causing massive hemorrhages and edema in the lung."

 

-------------------------------------------------------

 

Was reading an old story about the plague that hit London in the late 1665 (people falling down dead everywhere) and the people that weathered that plague were the ones that stocked up a lot of food and shut themselves up in their homes. (Those that had to go out and get food were sure to contract the illness at the market place and then bring the sickness home to their families; lots of rich families contracted the plague via their servants.)

 

A Journal of the Plague Year by Daniel Defoe

"On the other hand, many that thus got away had retreats to go to and other houses, where they locked themselves up and kept hid till the plague was over; and many families, foreseeing the approach of the distemper, laid up stores of provisions sufficient for their whole families, and shut themselves up, and that so entirely that they were neither seen or heard of till the infection was quite ceased, and then came abroad sound and well. I might recollect several such as these, and give you the particulars of their management; for doubtless it was the most effectual secure step that could be taken for such whose circumstances would not admit them to remove, or who had not retreats abroad proper for the case; for in being thus shut up they were as if they had been a hundred miles off. Nor do I remember that any one of those families miscarried. Among these, several Dutch merchants were particularly remarkable, who kept their houses like little garrisons besieged suffering none to go in or out or come near them, particularly one in a court in Throgmorton Street whose house looked into Draper's Garden."

 

 

So, we'll see how things go this fall but, just in case, I'm getting ready to stay at home for a month or two. IMO not coming in contact with the infected will be more effective than even antibiotics or Tamiflu - because antibiotics aren't going to have any effect on a cytokine storm.

[Jakk]

I've been poking around trying to find out what the "big deal" is about the current swine flu. Appears the panic is because this strain is very similar to the 1918 flu.

New flu resembles feared 1918 virus: study http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/...=22&sp=true

"The new H1N1 influenza virus bears a disturbing resemblance to the virus strain that caused the 1918 flu pandemic, with a greater ability to infect the lungs than common seasonal flu viruses, researchers reported on Monday."

 

 

So why is it disturbing that the virus resembles the 1918 strain?

 

According to Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu "Among the conclusions of this research is that the virus kills via a cytokine storm (overreaction of the body's immune system) which explains its unusually severe nature and the concentrated age profile of its victims. The strong immune systems of young adults ravaged the body, whereas the weaker immune systems of children and middle-aged adults caused fewer deaths."

 

A cytokine storm is:

"When the immune system is fighting pathogens, cytokines signal immune cells such as T-cells and macrophages to travel to the site of infection. In addition, cytokines activate those cells, stimulating them to produce more cytokines. Normally, this feedback loop is kept in check by the body. However, in some instances, the reaction becomes uncontrolled, and too many immune cells are activated in a single place. The precise reason for this is not entirely understood but may be caused by an exaggerated response when the immune system encounters a new and highly pathogenic invader. Cytokine storms have potential to do significant damage to body tissues and organs. If a cytokine storm occurs in the lungs, for example, fluids and immune cells such as macrophages may accumulate and eventually block off the airways, potentially resulting in death."

 

 

If H1N1 is similar to the 1918 flu (which is appears it is because the elderly that appear to have some immunity to the current strain) then this is bad, bad news. Again from Wiki:

"This huge death toll (3% to 6% of the entire global population died) was caused by an extremely high infection rate of up to 50% and the extreme severity of the symptoms, suspected to be caused by cytokine storms. Indeed, symptoms in 1918 were so unusual that initially influenza was misdiagnosed as dengue, cholera, or typhoid. One observer wrote, "One of the most striking of the complications was hemorrhage from mucous membranes, especially from the nose, stomach, and intestine. Bleeding from the ears and petechial hemorrhages in the skin also occurred." The majority of deaths were from bacterial pneumonia, a secondary infection caused by influenza, but the virus also killed people directly, causing massive hemorrhages and edema in the lung."

 

 

Was reading an old story about the plague that hit London in the late 1600s (people falling down dead everywhere) and the people that weathered that plague were the ones that stocked up a lot of food and shut themselves up in their homes. Those that had to go out and get food were sure to contract the illness at the market place and then bring the sickness home to their families; lots of rich families contracted the plague via their servants.

So, we'll see how things go this fall but, just in case, I'm getting ready to stay at home for a month or two. IMO not coming in contact with the infected will be more effective than even antibiotics or Tamiflu - because antibiotics aren't going to have any effect on a cytokine storm.

 

Wow, thats a wealth of information! Thank you.

 

I found this on the Flu.gov site.

 

http://www.flu.gov/general/greatpandemic.html

It lists events that happened during the 1918 pandemic by State. Some were hit harder than others. I am outside of Philadelphia and it was hit HARD in 1918. I was reading through some of the links and if this fall is even half as bad as 1918 then we are in SERIOUS trouble!

I am off to Aldi's to pick up a few more cases of veggies and pasta!

 

[SlingMama]

I added a bit to my post above - just about staying home. But one other thing to consider - and I've been thinking about this long and hard because my DH is in health care - what do I do with my husband if he insists on going to work? He can't come back into the house and infect me and the kids. We do have a nice 4 season tent and 0 degree sleeping bags (unfortunately flu hits in the winter) and I just stocked up on paper plates and plastic utensils so I can leave a plate of food on the ground for him. I have a solar shower and wash tub and clothes line if he needs to do laundry but it's going to be harsh in the cold.

 

I don't know. I'd like to convince DH to stay home but I don't know if that's possible. And if he insists on getting the vaccine ...

[K_L]

If he is in health care he will be forced into getting vacinated at the cost of losing his licence to practice if he doesn't.

If it gets really bad he may be forced to go to work.

[JCK88]

If y'all had been paying attention to my myriad of posts on the flu,. you'd have learned that latest research is showing that it is not the cytokines that kill you. The cytokines are a natural immune response. The storm happens because the cytokine receptors get damaged by the illness and then they have no where to go and cause the "storm." It is not yet known why the receptors shut down. If they can figure that out, they will have a solution.

 

Other current research just out this month is showing that there may be a way to shut down the cytokine storm. Of course this won't be ready in time for this bout of flu--but experimental studies have been going on where it is attempted to weaken the immune system to make the cytokine storm non-lethal.

 

 

The cytokines have been found to be body part specific. (If the infection is in your throat, for example, that is where the abundance of cytokines will form, and they can close off your wind pipe....if in your lungs, they can shut down your breathing) The studies I've been reading about are trying to be target-specific--to weaken the immune response in the area where the infection is, not all over your whole body.

 

Anyway, in the event that many deaths start to occur, there will be protocols for people staying home and not going out. If someone is sick at home, for example, you might not be allowed to go to work until everyone is well for at least 10 days. If someone is sick at work, and you are exposed there, it might be better to be able to shelter in your office until the incubation period is over and you know you are not ill.

 

It would be far better to have your husband have a BOB with two weeks' supply of food in it and clothing changes at his place of work. If he is in health care, they would not want him infecting others, either. Health care facilities usually have a spare corner where he could sleep there. During a crisis, they might expect him to do this anyway.

 

In his car, he should keep an air mattress and sleeping bag and his BOB. That's what we are doing. My husband would not want to expose those of us at home to this. But we don't want him sleeping in the rabbit hutch, either!

 

And, please look up the information that has been posted before on Mrs. S about the flu. Much has been posted about the correct way to protect yourself at home if you have to care for someone who is sick. Be sure to learn what you need and to procure it now. Know what you would need to do so if the time comes, you are not panicked and paralyzed with fear.

[Jakk]

If he is in health care he will be forced into getting vacinated at the cost of losing his licence to practice if he doesn't.

If it gets really bad he may be forced to go to work.

My husband works in a hospital. He is an IT tech and he rotates between three local hospitals. We live in the North East and it gets way too cold to be out in a tent and I cannot financially swing a camper. I do have a full bathroom with a shower that leads to the outside and he will be able to get showered before coming inside. If it gets bad we can isolate him in the lower level (where that bathroom is) although he will NOT be happy about it. He is not worried about the flu, he thinks I am overreacting. Financially he needs to still go to work. Its not an option for him to SIP with us.

 

I teach preschool and will quit when it becomes necessary to SIP with my kids. My oldest son is 21 and he is moving into his own place this weekend. I worry about him. Like my husband, he cannot afford to not got to work.

[brandys0524]

[quote name='JCK88' date='Jul 27 2009, 12:20 PM' post='30

 

And, please look up the information that has been posted before on Mrs. S about the flu. Much has been posted about the correct way to protect yourself at home if you have to care for someone who is sick. Be sure to learn what you need and to procure it now. Know what you would need to do so if the time comes, you are not panicked and paralyzed with fear.

 

 

 

Thanks for any all responses. I tried to make myself as clear as i could, but from this statement I can see prehaps I did not do a good enough job.

Once again... I understand the steps I can take to help prevent my family from catching it. I understand how to quarintine family in the event someone in my home gets sick. What I don't understand is this....

 

****HOW***** is death caused from this flu? And is there anything I can do to help once we get it. I know how to care for the regular flu, but since this strain has a high death rate, what causes the deaths, and is there anything I can do now [ tamiflu, antibiotics stockpiled] that would help in the event we got it.

As this point I am interterested in hearing about how I can prevent death if we are already infected, since I already understand the best steps to take for prevention.

I like to have a back up plan for everything. If all my preventive measures don't work, and we do catch it, what can I do [if anything] at that point to help us stay alive?

 

Sorry for not making my post clear.

 

Thanks,

Brandy

Edited to try to fix the quote, but couldn't figure it out.

[pamcat]

Hi: Dr. Gratten Woodson has a website. www.birdflumanual.com/ He has a pdf titled "good home treatment for influenza". rehydration formulas well as other good information pam