Elderberries?

[grace]

I was reading a post on another group, some one said not to use elderberries if you preg or nursing... I'm always one of them lol. Anyone know if this is true and why?

[Mother]

Kim it is true that Elderberry Extract is not reccommended for pregnant or nursing individuals. I'm not exactly sure why though unless it has to do with it being extracted principals as apposed to the whole fruit constituents. Elderberry is used in making pies, jellies, jams and syrups, as well as wine. There seems to be no suggestions out there that pregnant or nursing individuals do not eat or drink them. It is suggested that elderberries not be eaten raw but I have eaten them many times and have no problem with them. I also dry elderberries and make tea from them with no problems but then I'm not pregnant or nursing!

 

I suggest that you be cautious with them. There is not much sense in taking chances unless you can find enough reliable information on them to ensure that they are safe.

 

If you are concerned about not being able to use them if you get the Avian Flu, elderberry extract has not been proven safe for use with that. It's true that elderberry is very effective for the regular flu but there is some valid information out there that suggests it would be dangerous to use with this specific type of Avian Flu unless an anti-inflamitory was used with it. The immune system is in overdrive already with this flu and it might not be a good idea to make it more so.

 

As an alternative I stock Vitamin C, garlic and Turmeric plus some others. Vitamin C should be safe for pregnant and nursing individuals even in large doses but I haven't done the research on that.

 

 

[Kygal]

my big book of plants sais that elderberries (red)cause nausea when eaten raw, and that the stems bark leaves and roots are "toxic due to cyanide producing glycosides" could have something to do with that?

[Mother]

You are right Pixie, that is what is considered dangerous about elderberries. Many other fruits contain that same or similar properties. Peach,cherry, apricot, and other stone fruit pits; apple, pear, and other fruit seeds can all contain some amounts of those glycosides. Yet almonds are in that family and we eat them. Some real health benefits comes from pits and even the bark and leaves of elderberry have a medicinal use although carefully. I know that children have been making "pea shooters" out of the stems for ages but I also know that they can be poisoned by them too. Remember that there are Red and Black Elderberries both and the black is the one usually considered for use. Usually!!!!

 

 

 

[5th graders mama]

I'm a wee bit late coming in on this, but I agree with Mother. Elderberry has become the echinacea of the new millenium. Personally, I believe it has some very good uses but don't consider it the panacea (sp?) many folks are making it.

 

Toxicity is a sketchy thing to tackle. We're surrounded by toxins daily in what we eat and breathe. I've seen many a pregnant woman swear off of alcohol yet swill down a 2-liter bottle of Coke a day during her pregnancy. Back when I was in high school chemistry we put pennies in bottle of coke and, maybe 6?, weeks later the pennies were a pile of copper mush...

 

that being said, we have to look at the entire elder plant. The blossoms, leaves, bark and berries each have different medicinal value. Nearly all of my pre-1980 books refer to the use of the BLOSSOM in the treatment of the flu, not the berry.

[grace]

Thank you! ) to and also garlic and zinc when I feel sickish.

 

MamaCat, about the coke YUCK! I've herd how bad it is...and have got myself down to a few drinks on the weekend. Hoping to do a compleat cut soon.

 

[Mother]

Kim, I did a quick search of my bookmarked midwife sites and found only one reference to not using elder during PG and that was not to use the bark because it's a laxitive. But then, I wouldn't reccomend the bark for anyone as it can be very purgative in the wrong doses. The stems are said to be poisonous.

 

The berries are actually used in some natural alternative prenatal formulas according to what I read. The berries were not listed on any of the midwife sites I looked at as an herb to avoid but they were listed on several regular sites on herbs as to be avoided by pregnant and nursing, most saying it was because there has not been enough research into it's usage during those times.

 

Mamacat is right that most herbals talk about the elderflower which is extremely effective for fevers, being a fibrifuge. It actually will make you sweat. I use it in my own tea formula for colds and flu. Elderberries have the same action actually.

 

It seems that every year or two someone comes along and finds a "new" use for an herb and they in turn promote the heck out of it so that they can make a ton of money off it. Then when the excitement wears down someone comes up with something "new" again. St. John's Wort had it's day and it's proponents until the powers that be started protesting that it was cutting into the antidepressant profits of the drug companies and they started finding "fault" with it. Then there was Echinacea and Garlic. THEY were the alternative antibiotic kings for a long time, still are but are gradually losing their glamour even if they have not lost their effectivness. It's all in the propaganda and sales pitch.

 

Sambucol has made the elderberry "King" lately even though I understand there are other ingredients in Sambucol.

 

I try to take everything I see advertised about herbs with a grain of salt. In other words, I'm skeptical until I do my own research. And when I do that research, I do NOT research in web sites that have something to sell me, especially the product I am researching. You may see this wonderful study done on some herb that tolls its excellance but then upon further study you find the study was funded by the person or company that wants to make money off that herb. That's true for a lot of products actually.

 

As for Elderberry tincture. I do not believe it's the alcohol that is the problem but I do believe that alcohol can extract different chemical constituents from most herbs than water alone can. It is not listed as a uterine stimulant as far as I can find. My advice, go ask your midwife. Most of them are well versed in the useage of herbs. I would be much more apt to trust them.

 

 

[Guest Guest]

when not to take elderberry extract

 

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...p;dopt=Citation

 

 

[Guest Guest]

http://www.med-owl.com/herbal-antivirals/tiki-index.php

[Mother]

This is an exerpt about Elderberry from the site that Westy just posted.

 

Elderberry is a controversial herb with respect to H5N1. There is evidence that black elderberry extract (trade name: Sambucol) can reduce the risk of contracting ordinary influenza strains, or shorten the course of disease in those who contract the typical flu. It does so (at least partially) by increasing the production of inflammatory cytokines like IL-1, IL-6, and TNF! (citation) While black elderberry extract be appropriate for ordinary Type A influenza, there is a concern it could make avian flu more lethal. Ordinary strains of flu do not trigger massive production of TNF, and ordinary flu viruses are generally susceptible to the action of TNF. Avian flu, by contrast, does trigger massive production of TNF, while the virus is relatively resistant to the anti-viral effects of TNF. If TNF is a significant cause of the illness and mortality in avian flu, anything that increases TNF would be undesirable.

 

 

It has been pointed out that black elderberry does not just increase TNF and other cytokines. It also may reduce the spread of the virus through inactivation, or exert anti-inflammatory effects as well as contributing to the cytokine storm. It may be that combining elberberry with other anti-inflammatories may allow it to check the infection without producing tissue destroying levels of cytokines. But there is insufficient evidence to make a solid conclusion, while there are significant red flags that should be raised about the mode of action of elderberry.

 

http://www.med-owl.com/health/H5N1-Virus-Therapy.html

 

I have read this article and many others suggesting that while there is possibly a way that elderberry extract or tincture might be used in conjunction with anti-inflamitories, there is just not enough varification for it as yet and that the studies ARE there to indicate that might be counter productive to use with the Avian Flu.

 

I am not telling you that you shouldn't use it. I am telling you that there is reason to be cautious with its use in this particular virus. Please read this article as it gives you some safer alternatives. I care very much for all the Mrs. S members and would not want anyone to use something they felt was a "safe" herbal "cure" when my education and experience tells me how very effective but also very dangerous most herbals can be, used without proper knowledge.

 

Westy, thank you for posting this info. At the time that I read it I was not sure if I could post the link correctly.

 

 

[Guest Guest]

Ok.. Now they are saying that elderberries increase the production of cytokines, but one of those articles said echinacea also increases the production of cytokines - but I went looking for that ISR Med Journal, Nov 2002. I found it and found the article cited. It is at:

IMAJ Nov 2002 Article

 

They tested several herbal preparations, including 3 Sambucol preparations, echinacea, and some others. This is what they said about echinacea:

 

Quote:

Echinacea and propolis, when tested separately in vitro,moderately reduced the production of inflammatory cytokines (data not shown). This is in accordance with the present study where Protec and Chizukit N, both of which contain Echinacea and propolis, moderately decreased the production of the four inflammatory cytokines tested. [10,11]. Levels of the cytokines (IL-1a, IL-1b,IL-2, IL-6, TNFa, and interferon gamma) were measured in culture supernatants of stimulated whole blood cells derived from 23 tumor patients undergoing a 4 week oral treatment with an Echinacea complex. No significant changes were detected in the production of all cytokines tested [11]. In healthy volunteers, two of five studies performed with different preparations of Echinacea showed an enhancement in the phagocytic activity of polymorpho-nuclear neutrophil granulocytes [22]. Propolis was shown to enhance murine macrophage spreading and mobility [23]. Its influence on the production of cytokines has not yet been recorded. We assume that the induction of IL-8 by Protec is due to the presence of the ingredient propolis.

 

Inflammatory cytokines such as TNFa, IL-1b, IL-6 and IL-8 are multi-potential mediators of the cellular immune system, having a wide variety of biologic activities. They can have favorable or unfavorable effects on the host immune response, depending on their local concentration. Unfavorable effects may occur at very low or very high concentrations of these cytokines [19,20,23]. The balance between the production of inflammatory and anti-inflammatory cytokines will be responsible for the outcome and the duration of the immune response. Herbal remedies such as Sambucol products may strongly stimulate the immune system through inducing cytokine production in healthy individuals, as well as in patients with influenza, as

previously shown [8], or in other immunodepressed patients, such as cancer or HIV patients.

 

It's my understanding that Sambucol is made with a combination of elderberries & echinacea both. Maybe the echinacea offsets something in the elderberries?

[Guest Guest]

BONESET!!!

 

funny, here is an herb no one is talking about and yet it has been used for decades to treat flu.

 

 

Boneset, also called Agueweed, Feverwort, Thoroughwort, Sweating Plant, and Vegetable Antimony, is one of the best remedies for the relief of symptoms that accompany influenza. The common name Boneset includes the species Eupatorium tucrifolium, which is used interchangeably with Eupatorium perfoliatum. Boneset will speedily relieve the aches and pains, as well as aid the body in dealing with any fever that is present. Boneset may also be used to help clear the upper respiratory tract of mucous congestion. In the treatment of influenza, it may be combined with Yarrow, Cayenne or Ginger; and with Pleurisy Root & Elecampane in treating bronchial conditions. Boneset’s leaves and flowering tops are used in therapeutic treatments. It also has anti-inflammatory and laxative qualities. By inducing sweating, toxins are eliminated through the skin, and fever leaves the body. Boneset helps increase resistance to both bacterial and viral infections. The name Boneset is from the use of this herb in treating flu, known as breakbone fever, that caused bone pain in the early part of the 20th Century.

 

It has been much esteemed as a popular febrifuge, especially in intermittent fever, and has been employed, though less successfully, in typhoid and yellow fevers. It is largely used by the negroes of the Southern United States as a remedy in all cases of fever, as well as for its tonic effects. As a mild tonic it is useful in dyspepsia and general debility, and particularly serviceable in the indigestion of old people. The infusion of 1 OZ of the dried herb to 1 pint of boiling water may be taken in wineglassful doses, hot or cold: for colds and to produce perspiration, it is given hot; as a tonic, cold.

 

As a remedy in catarrh, more especially in influenza, it has been extensively used and with the best effects, given in doses of a wineglassful, warm every half hour, the patient remaining in bed the whole time; after four or five doses, profuse perspiration is caused and relief is obtained. It is stated that the popular name Boneset is derived from the great value of this remedy in the treatment of a species of influenza which had much prevailed in the United States, and which from the pain attending it was commonly called Break-Bone Fever.

 

This species of Eupatorium has also been employed in cutaneous diseases, and in the expulsion of tapeworm.

http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/b/bonese65.htm

 

 

 

[Mother]

 

 

 

[Guest Guest]

I have always had an interest in herbal medicine, BUT it took a great big leap when we had no medical insurance for several years. The study about echinacea above was not done by a drug company.. and the study that said echinacea increases cytokines was posted by a company that is trying to sell these other things.. I use echinacea & elderberry a lot, but also use a lot of other herbals also. Rather than spending money on Sambucol or any other type of flu remedy, I would make my own syrup or tincture.

 

Quote:

Strangely enough, my grandmother told me that her family used Elderberry tea for the 1918 influenza and that all but one of their family made it through and the one that didn't was a baby.

 

I have heard this from others in the same age bracket who lived through the Spanish flu. Considering that scientists have identified DNA very similar to the Spanish flu in H5N1, that makes me lean towards believing that elderberry might be helpful with this bird flu also. From what I've read & researched, the Spanish flu also originated as a bird flu, just different subtype.

 

I collect, dry, & keep all kinds of things that most people would think of as "strange". I order online, I order from catalogues, I buy stuff at the Dollar General & have even found some good buys at the $1 shop.

 

Quote:

Still I probably will not be using elderberry nor echinacea, nor any of the other immune enhancing herbs that would cause a cytokine storm, (though I stock most of them) if we have to deal with a H2H form of AF unless it's safety has been proven.

 

And there's the key, "unless it's safety has been proven". I'm not sure that they've proven anything safe and effective against this BF, even the Tamiflu that they are stockpiling. Some strains have proven resistant to Tamiflu already, and the ability of flu viruses to mutate & become resistant to anti-viral drugs is phenomenal.

 

Guess if/when the time comes, we'll just have to do like we always do -- try and do the best we can with what we have on hand.

[Mother]

Honey Bee, It's always difficult to try to figure out what specific herb to use for what. Even though we have studies, some of those studies have been done on only one constituent of an herb or sometimes even a combination of herbs. Most of these studies are underfunded.

 

I've been trying to figure out the reason that some people could use elderberry in the 1918 flu also without making it worse. Several things come to mind. First, most families used herbs yet then and would take them at the first sign of an illness. It's possible that elderberry, taken at the first sign of the disease would reduce the viral load enough to keep them from being very ill. There would be a very fine line between where it would be helpful and where it would turn harmful though. Also, most of the herbs my great grandmother would have used would have been in tea form and not in tincure form. Alcohol will extract certain properties that plain water might not. I also believe they would have been using elderflowers with the berries as the flowers are fever reducing. They may have had other herbs along with those also.

 

Another thing we have to remember is that this form of Avian Flu seems to be attacking the body more harshly and in more systems than the Spanish flu which primarily attacked the lungs. It will be a hard issue to face if the actuality of it occurs. My take on it is that there are so many other herbs to use than just elderberry. I'm not even sure how elderberry came to be such an important point in this forum. It is a specific for the regular flu but so are a lot of other herbs. Perhaps it was because of the Sambucol. Elderberry has some great uses but it has limitations just like other herbs.

 

There really is no panacea or wonder herb out there. The Earth gives us all sorts of medicines and all sorts of poisons. An herb can be both at different times or in different forms. As you said, it takes a huge leap of faith to utilize what is given us with knowledge and caution. We have been without medical insurance for some years now and I have more than once been grateful that I had the education and experience to use herbs and alternative healing but it has been almost a lifetime of learning and I'm STILL learning.

 

I'm glad to have you with us Honeybee. Let me introduce you to Lois, a long time herbalist, and Mamacat who has had her own herb farm. Both of them are very knowledgable in herbal usage. Maybe they will jump in and join this discussion.

 

 

 

 

[gardnmom]

In talking with many farmers around here it is believed that elderberries were used in the form of elderberry wine to fight flu. Many still use it.

Other than that, I am not sure of what herbs I would use the one thing I am concerned about is the use of aspirin, I think the fever needs to be controled but allowed to kill the virus.

I will use cool cloths and or alcohol to keep the fever under control.

[Mother]

Hmmm good point Lois. I'm not sure my grandparents would have had wine in their home but then, maybe for medicinal purposes

 

[Guest Guest]

Mother, I agree with you. It is difficult to try to figure out what specific herb to use for what AND that studies are so underfunded. It seems a shame to me that all this knowledge that used to be so commonplace is so hard to find now. It was THIS forum that really attracted me here to Mrs. Survival.

 

I have also been trying to figure out the reason that some people could use elderberry in the 1918 flu also without making it worse. I think you're right in your deductions. Herbal use was so commonplace back then that they did take herbs much sooner. Many people nowadays (including me) don't go to the doctor unless they absolutely have to because medicine has become big business. I also think like you do - that the elderberry flower tea would not increase the cytokine load as much as the tincture would and because of it's fever reducing qualities.

 

Another thing that comes to my mind is they used to make elderberry wine, but also elderberry jelly. The pectin in the jelly and the acetic acid in the wine would be antioxidants, which have been shown so far to help mediate & reduce the cytokine storm & get the body back on track again.

 

From what I've read, the research that they've done shows that cytokine storm has been the major reason this avian flu, the Spanish flu, and SARS are/were so deadly. Yet, this avian flu does seem to be worse - especially in healthy people.

 

I know there is no herb that will work as a "magic bullet". (Unfortunately). It's also largely probable that what works for some might not work for others.

 

What I've been trying to research and come up with is a combination of herbs that would be beneficial - to be used as a tea, a tonic, or a syrup. I don't want to make a tincture, as I am intolerant to alcohol, & I want something that could be used for children. So far, I think I've looked at hundreds of herbs including all the ones I keep around on a standard basis and some I don't but maybe should. I've also read about 100 different studies in researching this.

 

I think this "tonic" I'm trying to work out in my mind will include some kind of mild immune system booster, a febrefuge that is not salicylic, a pain relief or anti-inflammatory, maybe something that will also help the lungs - maybe mullein, some antioxidants to reduce the cytokine load, maybe honey, rosehips for vit C.. still working it all out in my mind.

 

I'm glad to be here and glad to meet Lois & Mamacat and all the rest of you also.

 

I've also been thinking of ways of sterilizing & disinfecting sick rooms. I'm not sure about heating the galvanized tub. My hubby says you are correct. If you try to cut or weld it, it gives off toxic fumes. He says it would not be advisable to put it over a fire. I think if the galvanized tub is big enough to do the actual washing/sterilizing, you could heat your water to boiling in cast iron & just continue to add boiling hot water into your galvanized tub to keep the temps up?? Maybe an old enameled bathtub would work to pour the boiling water into?

[gardnmom]

I think chorox added to your laundry tub would disinfect in hot water in your bath tub, even if it is not boiling. I am looking for expert help on that one.

I know that I will be using clorox and water to wet some paper towels in and put them in zip-lock bags for cleaning surfaces.

I need to avoid all sprays around the patient as it can be harmful to their lungs.

Take a look at the ingredients in the herbal cigarettes and you will find a list of ingredients that help to open the bronchial tubes and relax the muscles, the combinating may be helpful in formulating a remedy.

I used to have a list, need to look it up, it could be important now.

 

[Mother]

I have to be honest with you, Honeybee, The Nature's Pharmacy is also what attracted me to Mrs. S. That and Lois's posts. Bless her.

 

I had not thought of the elderberry jelly and the possibility of the pectin. Good point. I, too, have an intolerance to alcohol and prefer syrups or teas myself. I have used vinegar and find it is effective in some instances and not in others. I also fill blank capsules with herbs for ease of taking. That's one good thing about tinctures, you don't need a lot of water to administer them.

When a person is very ill they need liquids but often can tolerate them only in small amounts. (course some herbs can be used in enema form in emergencies)

 

A tonic would be a good idea, especially to take ahead of time but don't use honey with it. If you haven't read this already, check it out. It lists honey as causing a cytokine storm.

www.bird-flu-influenza.com

If you can't find it there, you can read it on here in this forum under "critically Important Bird Flu Info from biologist" posted on 3/8/06 by Waiting. I'd give you the link here but my Mod skills are just being honed and that's one I haven't gained yet. (Herbs come natural to me, Computers do not

 

 

[Guest Guest]

Quote:

A tonic would be a good idea, especially to take ahead of time but don't use honey with it. If you haven't read this already, check it out. It lists honey as causing a cytokine storm. www.bird-flu-influenza.com

So far, the research I've done shows that their list is somewhat skewed to sell the products they list as being "good" for bird flu. They have echinacea on their list of products that will increase cytokines also, but research has proven that echinacea does not increase cytokine production. On top of that, the PubMed article they list as a reference to honey is a study about the use of honey as a topical application for healing chronic wounds.

I have seen at least one study proving that echinacea and propolis (bee-glue) do not increase cytokine production but might actually mediate cytokine production. I'll have to find the link and post it.

Not that I'm sure I will use honey regardless in my tonic. I'm still in the "listing what properties I want" phase and deciding what ingredients would be best for each property.

I agree on using bleach. For the price, the bleach is one of the best "virucidals" on the market.

I will make updates on my "tonic" progress. I think this is a great place to bounce ideas off other folks interested in (and very knowledgeable about) herbs.