Left Jars in Pressure Canner-are they okay?

[SurvivalMom78]

I was up late pressure canning, and was very tired. I allowed the pressure canner to cool, and removed the weighted gauge, but then I fell asleep and the jars were inside the pressure canner all night (with the lid on) for about 6 hours, until I woke up and realised it. Are my jars safe? Do I have to throw everything away???

[SurvivalMom78]

Could I reprocess them? I'm so sad!!!

[CrabGrassAcres]

Absolutely do not toss them or reprocess! Take them out, wash them off, remove the rings and put them on the shelf. I frequently turn the canner off and fall in bed. They are fine left in the canner till morning.

[Violet]

Sorry, they are NOT SAFE !!! They have a thermal loving bacteria that grows in that hot canner. You cannot safely save them at this point.

 

If you reprocess, I cannot guarantee that it will destroy all the bacteria. So, it is up to you if you want to risk it.

 

You are also lucky you did not get a reverse vacuum. Yes, it really happens ! No matter what you do, the canner lid will never come off. Then you lose not only the food, jars, but the entire canner. I am telling you the truth, this can happen.

I know of people it did happen to.

[SurvivalMom78]

I did reprocess them I reheated the food to a boil, then repacked in new hot jars and new lids....so I guess I need to toss everything now? Violet, is the jars salvagable? Or is it like botulism, where everything needs to be destroyed?

 

 

 

I am crying so bad right now, my poor pasta sauce

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, they are NOT SAFE !!! They have a thermal loving bacteria that grows in that hot canner. You cannot safely save them at this point.

 

If you reprocess, I cannot guarantee that it will destroy all the bacteria. So, it is up to you if you want to risk it.

 

You are also lucky you did not get a reverse vacuum. Yes, it really happens ! No matter what you do, the canner lid will never come off. Then you lose not only the food, jars, but the entire canner. I am telling you the truth, this can happen.

I know of people it did happen to.

[CrabGrassAcres]

Sorry, they are NOT SAFE !!! They have a thermal loving bacteria that grows in that hot canner. You cannot safely save them at this point.

 

If you reprocess, I cannot guarantee that it will destroy all the bacteria. So, it is up to you if you want to risk it.

 

You are also lucky you did not get a reverse vacuum. Yes, it really happens ! No matter what you do, the canner lid will never come off. Then you lose not only the food, jars, but the entire canner. I am telling you the truth, this can happen.

I know of people it did happen to.

 

Ridiculous. If there is a thermal loving bacteria in there then NO home canned food is safe to eat! Might as well toss all our canners and go buy canned food from the grocery.

 

I don't believe that about the reverse vacuum either. You have a vent hole in the thing so it cannot have a vacuum in it.

 

I don't have a food safety course under my belt. Only a degree in nursing which required Microbiology and 4 yrs towards a 5 yr degree in Mechanical Engineering. (I had to quit because I was too sick with cancer to continue. I was on the President's list.) I had to study Chemistry, Physics and Thermodynamics among other things.

[Mother]

I agree with CGA in this case. SurvivalMom states she cooled the canner and removed the weight. That alone would make it difficult for a vacuum to occur unless the vent and weight tube were clogged. Perhaps that's another reason to check the seals and vent openings in your canner each time you use it.

 

Violet, please tell us more about the thermal loving bacteria. What is it specifically and in what conditions does it grow? Would that have even been a worry in the pasta sauce which was presumably tomato and high acid (assuming she had no meat or large amount of low acid vegetables in it and/or followed an approved recipe)?

 

Should we be worried about all home canned foods as CGA says? And what keeps it from happening in commercially canned foods?

[Violet]

You need to remove the jars out of the canner since they sit in the temperature danger zone too long. That is where the bacteria starts growing. They need to be removed to cool down. We all know that bacteria grows rapidly and multiplies at certain temperatures. Just as in that hot canner. You want the jars to cool off . In the canner, you have no idea WHEN those jars sealed and what the TEMPERATURE stayed at in those jars for what length of time. It is during that hot time in the canner bacteria grows. Most all homecanned foods are safe. It is when you take shortcuts, as well as leave in that hot environment that they are not considered safe. They are thermophiles that grow, heat loving bacteria.

 

Do you safely cook and store your foods at home ? Follow the 2 hour safe guideline at room temp. before needing to throw them away ? Same principal here, they sit in that danger zone way too long.

 

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/foodnut/09341.html

 

 

The tomato product would be the worst since it can get flat sour.

 

Forced cooling is just as bad.. the time a canner takes to get up to pressure and to drop naturally are factored into the safe processing time. If you force it to cool too fast, then they are considered underprocessed. So, it does matter when and how you cool down the canner and jars.

 

NCHFP says :

"While the canner is cooling, it is also de-pressurizing. Do not force cool the canner. Forced cooling may result in food spoilage. Cooling the canner with cold running water or opening the vent pipe before the canner is fully depressurized are types of forced cooling. They will also cause loss of liquid from jars and seal failures. Forced cooling may also warp the canner lid".

 

 

 

 

The reverse vacuum IS true. Ask Crazy4canning and she will tell you it happened to her ! . You don't have to believe me, but even removing the weight or counterweight will not always keep it from happening. I believe she finally got the lid off, but most cases the lid will not come off. The only way to get it open would be to saw it off.

It is like a jar lid sealing, there is pressure in that canner and the lid can seal down and get stuck.

[CrabGrassAcres]

FSRE_SS_2Microbiology.pdf (application/pdf Object)

 

*IF* there are thermophilic bacteria in the canner, they are not pathogenic and the gov doesn't even consider them to be a problem.

 

If you are worried about them, set the canner on the stove, dry and empty and get it a lot hotter than 250 and let it cool off.

 

If you processed the jars as directed, where are the bacteria coming from that are supposedly growing in your jars? I've been turning the canner off and going to bed for years with no problem. The only time I've had spoilage was when a jar failed to seal or didn't have enough vacuum to hold the seal because the liquid boiled out. That is quite obvious when you go to use the jar, if you didn't catch it sooner.

[Mother]

I'd like to mention something about leading by fear....

 

Violet. Please, don’t think I’m doubting that mishaps can happen. Far from it. They can and do. The work of keeping us safe that you do here on Mrs. S is wonderful and I definitely was not trying to slight your knowledge. Far from it, I was seriously looking for some answers from you.

 

I am well aware that it is normal for people to want to just be ‘told’ what to do. We have had many many discussions here on Mrs. S about sheeples. We all pride ourselves on NOT being one. I had hoped that rather than just telling us to do it a certain way, you might help everyone get a better understanding of WHY foods need to be processed in a certain way so that if TS does HTF we would have a better understanding of the various bacteria and organisms that could be in our foods.

 

There are all types of bacteria in the world. Many more are beneficial than not. Perhaps if they knew the difference between the good, bad, and ugly bacteria it would better help people to understand what they were dealing with. I supposed you were talking about Bacillus Stearothermophilus when you talk about thermophiles, but wasn’t sure. These are actually the same bacteria (or type) that help a compost heap to do it‘s work. They are found numerously in nature. It was my understanding from my food safety courses, taken through the Health department and nearby college, that these would just spoil the product, making them sour tasting, but were not harmful to us. I know that Bacillus Coagulans will make tomatoes sour but is also not harmful other than to give the product a sour taste. I thought perhaps you had more knowledge on these organisms that would help us understand them but not fear all bacteria.

 

A question that has been brought up numerous times in my canning groups of the past has been, (and CGA just asked it again) “If the food is properly processed to begin with, why would there be dangerous bacteria left in the product to continue to multiply if left in the canner? (other than the heat loving kinds that could make the product sour, that is) And if that were the case, then wouldn’t they continue to multiply even after the jar is taken out of the canner especially if the weather and room were hot?” There is, of course, the threat of Botulism but that can also be a threat in commercially canned foods and in improperly handled foods. It is also one of those numerous world wide bacteria, but the ugly kind. Still, if a proper temperature is reached, even Botulism can be destroyed. That is why certain temperatures and times are recommended. It is also why some people boil their home canned vegetables and meats for twenty minutes before consuming them though if the food is properly canned to begin with it is not strictly necessary.

 

It is true that not processing at the correct temperature and time for any given food might give us a dangerous product. I encourage people to follow directions closely, including removing jars from the canners once the seal has released. I also understand that there might be the odd reverse vacuum occurring that could cause a canner to be sealed shut, or conversely a faulty canner that can blow their seals. Those are, however, a rare occurrence and should not stop our members from learning to properly home can foods.

 

I firmly believe that knowledge can be power. I also believe that the members of Mrs. S are not sheeples, or are at least striving not to be, and deserve the information that will allow them to make informed choices. I worry that without a thorough understanding of the mechanisms members might be put off home canning all together because of fear. Worse yet, if there comes a time when they don’t have access to their internet or even their books, they might not know what to do. And that, especially for preppers, could mean the difference between survival or not.

 

I rarely jump in on a canning thread, preferring to leave the answers up to others and especially up to you, Violet. But I beg all of you not to lead by fear. Fear can be terribly disabling. That is often what the government does to us and we all know how much we detest that. Positive reinforcement, in all manner of prepping (indeed in all walks of life), can be so much more motivating than putting the fear of death in front of someone. That can be so discouraging.

 

We all know or sense what is happening out there. It is one of the main reasons people prep but we should come to prepping, or canning, or whatever with a thorough understanding of how and why we are doing it, not with desperation and certainly not with fear riding on our shoulders. We DO need to know about the fearful things out there so that we can be better prepared for them. I am not questioning that but we should know WHY we should fear them to get a better understanding for what to do about them. It’s possible, with understanding, we might find we had little to fear about to begin with.

 

Please, everyone, be safe but do NOT let fear rule your prepping (or your canning). Let knowledge rule it.

 

[SurvivalMom78]

Update:

 

 

 

I really appreciate everyone's insight to what could possibly be going on with the jars of pasta sauce. I kept them, labelled them (to distinguish them from the others) and set them in a seperate area. I read everyone's post, and I could see valid points from both sides. I also did some research on the thermophilic bacteria and saw supporting evidence (from government sites) that said it was harmless, and others that said it could be harmful.

 

 

 

So.....I decided to experiement. I have sauce I prepared previously (same UGA recipe) and I opened one that was processed exactly how it should have been, and then the ones in question here.

 

 

The ones that were in question were bad. I opened the jar and it squirted at me. It was foul. Because squirting jars could mean botulism (although I don't see how it could in such a high acid pressure canned dish) I took the steps I have read here to dispose of the jars and their contents. I wore gloves, bleached the entire area, and wore a N95 mask (which I hope is okay.)

 

 

I really appreciate everyones input, from a Master Food Preserver, to an Science major, to ladies who have done this for years..... but the end result was bad sauce. I didn't open all the jars, just that one, the others may have been okay-but I did not want to risk it. From now on, I will do things exactly by the book. I'm sure that most of the time waivering from the suggestions is "probably" okay. Lot's of people can, and there are not many cases of botulism....but food illnesses often go unreported, and when in doubt, throw it out.

 

 

 

Thanks everyone, and I didn't mean to cause any conflict.

 

 

 

We're all in this together, and I like this online family. No fighting!

[Andrea]

I'm glad you posted this! I had no idea this could happen. I'm ashamed to admit, that there have been more than a few times when I've finished the last batch of whatever and then went off to bed . . . Luckily, no harm has come to us but I'll make sure and take care in the future. Thanks for opening up this can of worms. This is how we learn.

[Mother]

SurvivalMom, you did NOT cause a conflict. You allowed us to have an open discussion on views here. That is extremely important here on Mrs. S where we are all trying to learn survival. I agree with safety. I have taught many classes where I've advocated that very thing. This, however, is not what I was getting at in my reply.

 

First, safety can mean different things to different people. For instance,,Is our government the only authority on how we can do things? What makes them the "authority"? Who actually 'funds' the testing that is used for their criteria? Why is it that we can be so against the government dictates on some things but they are the "authority" on others? If you study the "authorities" on home canning from other countries you will find there is some similarities but mostly you will find differences. Who's right? France has some wonderful preserving methods that our government says is not to be done yet the statistics don't point to danger or deaths for them in France??? Is our government trying to save us from ourselves? They don't seem to be doing a great job of keeping our commercial food supply safe do they? I'm not saying they are necessarily wrong, just pointing out that we need more information if we are going to make informed decisions on what is right for us and not just be sheeples and mindlessly go along with something just because 'they' tell us to.

 

I would like to suggest that you or anyone on Mrs. S does not go blindly along with ANYONE, even me who's been prepping for so many years I've lost count. There are as many ways to prep as there are preppers, there are also as many ways to survive as there are situations to survive.

 

But I strongly believe that if Mrs. S is to continue being effective as a survival and prep tool for it's members, especially the new ones, those of us who are trying to help have to be cautious not to scare you so much that you give up. We do need to point out the hazzards and even the reasons for the need to be prepared but we also need to give you information so you can make an informed decision, one that will work for your own situation and family. You now have that information about thermophiles and so do others. Conflicting as it is, you made a decision based on a broad range of information. We need to do that here on Mrs. S. with many things. It's okay for us to point out problems and safety issues but we also need to try to explain WHY the thing is not safe. We can be wrong. In fact, we might just be misinformed ourselves. THAT is why we have these threads, to see different sides of an issue. They are not conflicts, or they shouldn't be at least. I did not disagree with Violet. She is one of our most informed canning experts here. She works hard at keeping people safe. I can really appreciate that. But there ARE other sides of the canning issue. Sides you and others might need to know about to make a well informed decision for your own situation. They might not be sides you need to know about in your current situation but what if we have a TEOTWAWKI (The end of the world as we know it for those who don't know the meaning) The knowledge of those sides might mean survival or not at that time.

 

That is what I was getting at. We should not lead by making you fear but by helping you to see different sides of an issue. It has nothing to do with trying to prove someone who post is right or wrong, or at least it shouldn't be. We are all trying very hard NOT to be sheeples here on Mrs. S. You can't do that if you blindly do what you are told to do. You have to sort through the truth and then take responsibility for your own decisions.

 

From the sounds of your research and the fact that you chose wisely not to save the questionable food, YOU, Survival Mom, are NOT a sheeple. GOOD FOR YOU!

 

:bighug:

[Jeepers]

SurvivalMom, conflicting opinions are healthy. They make us think! I'd hate to think we would become PC here too where we can't have an opinion. Thanks for reporting back. I've had cans go bad when I know I've followed the directions perfectly. Sometimes just one can out of the whole batch. Just goes to show...we need to be ever aware of what we put in our mouth whether it is homemade or store bought. On the other side I've seen more recalls of store bought food lately than I ever have.

 

Everyone here at Mrs.S is very respectful even when we don't agree. As Mother said, we don't want to be Sheeples either. Or Stepford women.

 

[Violet]

I am sorry the sauce was bad and you had to toss it. Even if flat sour would not make you ill, how could a person stand to eat it ?