Tyndallization ?

[Ambergris]

I came across this in a non-US video while trying to find out how to can with the jars available to me.  I found a ton of videos explaining it as effective, almost all of them coming from India, sounds like.  

Knowledgeable canners, what is the consensus on this?

[Littlesister]

Are you talking about the newest ball canning jars that's out now. Round and no markings that I could see?

[Mother]

I had to look this up.  I’ve read about and even tried some of the preserving processes from other countries and a lot of the old time means but I had not heard of tyndallization.  The description I read says to boil (100°c = 212°f) the product for various times, (mostly 20 minutes to 45 minutes, it seems to vary depending on who’s describing it) once a day for three days, and holding the product at 37°c (98.6°f) in between.  I haven’t taken time to find particulars, such as is that IN the jars?  
 

The process seems to be aimed at killing the bacteria and also the spores that would multiply in the cooler temps. The bacteria would be killed with the first boiling and I’m guessing by the time the third boiling is done the spores are also wiped out.  That does sound logical to me.  
 

I wonder why particularly in India.   Something you might have to take into account is the same things we do here, the amount of acid in a food, is this done with meat and dense vegetables?  Are they doing something specific besides that we might not do?  They are probably not preserving beef as isn’t that considered sacred there so what meat might they be using if it IS used for meat that is.  
 

I find this very  interesting.

[Necie]

https://www.healthycanning.com/fractional-sterilization-intermittent-processing/
 

This does not sound safe. My biggest concern would be botulism and such. I just wouldn’t trust it to kill off *everything*. I’d rather do ‘rebel’ waterbath canning and then boil 15-20 minutes before consuming to kill off toxins.

[Jeepers]

I had never heard of it either. Good article Necie.

 

No matter how long you boil a jar of food, the temp will only reach 212*F.  Pressure canning  temperature reaches 240*F which is considered safe for non acid food preservation. 

 

I wouldn't trust canning food with this method. I don't even trust non acid food water bathed. But that's just me. I don't take too many chances with home canned food. I'm all for rebel canning to a certain degree when it comes to ingredients, but not when it comes to the safety process. 

 

Sounds  too much like Russian Roulette to me. In this case, old ways are not better. We have learned safer ways to can food. Also, our food is different these days and new strains of bacteria have mutated. After boiling food for over 3 hours there probably isn't much nutrients left anyway. 

 

Don't chance it. But if you do, don't share that food with anyone. Nothing is 100% but that method isn't even 50%. 

 

[Midnightmom]

11 hours ago, Littlesister said:

Are you talking about the newest ball canning jars that's out now. Round and no markings that I could see?

I purchased some of the "smooth" canning jars a few months back. I returned them.

Regualar canning jars have the Ball/Kerr/etc name on them on the sides of the jar in "relief." That is, they are textured. That makes them easier to handle when wet or soapy. The smooth jars were waaaaaaaaaaay to slick when they got wet because the smooth surface provided nothing to "grip." (The Ball name was on one side in very small lettering at the very bottom of the jar)

[Jeepers]

I didn't like the looks of the smooth sided canning jars. I think Ball issued them with crafters in mind. And to me, that's what they looked like...cheap thinner crafter jars. 

 

That's probably a misconception but that's what I think of when I see them. 

 

I prefer Kerr because of their shape. They seem to be just a little more squared. They are embossed on one side only. But that one side makes them easy to hold onto. I wash my jars under hot soapy water after they cool so I need a grip too. 

 

Kerr is mosty sold out west so I have to order my Kerr jars. I can't find a one in Ohio or Indiana locally. I have to order from either Amazon or Walmart. I'm pretty well stocked up since 2022. 

[Littlesister]

I don't see Kerr jars around here anymore. 

 

But on this post, I wasn't thinking about Tantalization I picked up on the different jars available. So turned this I think toward different jars in general and not Tantalization preserving. 

But you are right about the ball canning jars that are out now. I don't like them either. Round and they don't feel as thick as the old ball canning jars. 

[snapshotmiki]

Wow!  That sounds very unsafe to me and I color outside the lines pretty often.  Won't be doing that @Necie!

[Necie]

42 minutes ago, snapshotmiki said:

Wow!  That sounds very unsafe to me and I color outside the lines pretty often.  Won't be doing that @Necie!

I do a good bit of ‘rebel’ canning myself. But I have a pressure canner, so go by recommendations using it. I understand that a lot of other countries don’t have access to pressure canners and still do mostly waterbath canning. Times are much longer and it is still recommended to boil waterbathed low acid foods for ~15 minutes to kill off any botulism toxins that form because botulism spores aren’t destroyed at 212* no matter how long it’s boiled. 
With this method, I would also be concerned about flat-sour due to holding the jars at a *warm* temp in between boilings. Lots of ruined food. 😞

[Mother]

I’m not advocating this method.  It seems risky to me but I do know that a Lot of countries use traditional preservation methods and have a lot less food poisoning from all sectors than we have here.  Most of these methods are for their local produce though and might be different in this country.  I would want some info on honsafe, in general, this is.
 

Actually, there is very little food poisoning from home canned foods in this country than from commercial products so we must be doing something right.  I, personally would err on the safe side.   Some of what I’m reading about it says it’s not as effective as an autoclave but then, neither is our canners.  It does seem this method is purposely allowing the spores to grow so they can turn into the bacteria so in turn be killed in subsequent boiling.  
 

It might be something we could use for sanitation or sterilization purposes in a survival situation though. That’s why I said it was interesting . 

[Midnightmom]

16 hours ago, Jeepers said:

I didn't like the looks of the smooth sided canning jars. I think Ball issued them with crafters in mind. And to me, that's what they looked like...cheap thinner crafter jars. 

 

When I saw them in the store, I thought so too. BUT, the box they were in was clearly marked for canning, so I bought the last 2 boxes they had. When I opened one of the boxes to wash the jars I discovered how slick and slippery they were when wet, so they went straight back to the store. 

[Ambergris]

On 2/27/2024 at 7:38 PM, Mother said:

I had to look this up.  I’ve read about and even tried some of the preserving processes from other countries and a lot of the old time means but I had not heard of tyndallization.  The description I read says to boil (100°c = 212°f) the product for various times, (mostly 20 minutes to 45 minutes, it seems to vary depending on who’s describing it) once a day for three days, and holding the product at 37°c (98.6°f) in between.  I haven’t taken time to find particulars, such as is that IN the jars?  
 

The process seems to be aimed at killing the bacteria and also the spores that would multiply in the cooler temps. The bacteria would be killed with the first boiling and I’m guessing by the time the third boiling is done the spores are also wiped out.  That does sound logical to me.  
 

I wonder why particularly in India.   Something you might have to take into account is the same things we do here, the amount of acid in a food, is this done with meat and dense vegetables?  Are they doing something specific besides that we might not do?  They are probably not preserving beef as isn’t that considered sacred there so what meat might they be using if it IS used for meat that is.  
 

I find this very  interesting.

 

 

 

The videos I was watching said to boil for an hour and a half to --in one video-- four hours, and in between boils to remove from the water and keep it at room temperature, then repeat the next day (and sometimes a third day) to kill any spores that might have hatched.  I so not see how twenty minutes of boiling would hope to bring the center of a bottle of meat to a temp high enough to do anything.  What struck me was that this combined the Amish very long processing of meat with something that appears to make sense--bring the cans back and re-process to kill anything that might have hatched, since what hatches is much easier to kill than anything still in spore stage.  However, what appears to make sense does not always work out once you take it out of theory and apply a microscope to what actually happens.  What I want to know is whether anyone has applied a microscope and found that this does not work, because they have people in white lab coats (which anyone can buy, rent, or borrow) saying it does work.

 

Some of them were pouring small amounts of "nine percent vinegar" into the jars, which I don't think you can even get here. 

 

Much of it was soups, stews, and chicken-based stuff you pour over rice to be used within the month, although they often say "can be kept in a cool dry place for up to a year."  Some was bottled meat (pork, beef, chicken, sausage) that was largely done in German, although a good bit of the Indian stuff was really concentrated on the chicken.  

 

One of the people bottling meat (pork, as I recall) crammed it in and/or used a lot of fatty bits in various segments, which had me going "yeah, right" a lot of times, but then said "this keeps in the refrigerator for a very long time" and otherwise made a point that it was not intended to be shelf-stable.  

 

With some people, like the one doing meatballs in thickened sauce, I had to go through my history and click to remove all their videos so Youtube would stop suggesting them to me, because of putting thickeners in sauces and so on.  That let me know I couldn't trust anything else those particular people said.  

[Ambergris]

So Tyndall was a 19th century physicist and his name is used alongside Pasteur's in much of the world.  I've seen it, but associated it with something else.  In India, Tyndallization is used as a standard practice.  Here's a pretty representative Indian text:  https://rbrlifescience.com/moist-heat-sterilization-principle-types-advantages/ 

There are references to when it fails, but I can't find any numbers as to how often that happens, and whether it can be traced to proper technique, such as not making sure the stuff in the middle of the bottle has been held at the proper temperature for twenty minutes during each of the three consecutive boiling days. 

 

And, yes, the science sources as opposed to the cooking sources say three consecutive cooking days.   

 

The information I am getting indicates it is about as effective as pressure canning, assuming each is done correctly, but much more time consuming, and is preferred for things that cannot handle the pressure or temperatures of a pressure canner.  But people putting out a video on this technique WOULD say it is effective, right?  That's a self-selecting bias.

[euphrasyne]

I prefer dry heat as I grew up in MS and know moist heat can cause issues.  So I know that keeping water out is usually a good preservation technique as things in the swamp go bad fast.  To each their own.  

[Mother]

6 hours ago, Ambergris said:

One of the people bottling meat (pork, as I recall) crammed it in and/or used a lot of fatty bits in various segments,

This makes sense when you couple it with keeping it in the refrigerator. This would be similar to the old fashioned ‘larding’ that is still used in places where home butchering is prominent.  In the past, freshly butchered meat was fried until well done, then layered with lard in big crocks and stored in the unheated cellar.  Before consuming the meat was refried again or boiled well.  Cooking that meat with fatty pieces, three days in a row and then refrigerating, could give you a similar product. The fat would come to the top and seal the meat as well as the lid used. 
 

Thinking this through I believe I’d need more proof too or I’d use it only as a last resort if new lids were no longer available, like in a SHTF situation. 

[euphrasyne]

India is mostly vegetarian, and some do eat beef depending on religion. Some Sikhs do eat beef, though it is not common.  I went to school with a sikh girl who did eat it.  They also have rampant Jainism in India where it is vegetarian without root vegetables (no potatoes or garlic or any roots.)  Practices in India are closer to mid Africa than America.  The traditional kitchens look nothing like what you would find in the US although the more modern ones are closer.  This being said, Indian food is my family's favorite cuisine.  Chana masala wins hands down for everyone.  Shahi paneer for me, and the Americanized tikka masala for DH.  You would be amazed at what you can make from chickpeas.  Aquafaba --chickpea water can even be turned into whipped cream with a close texture and flavor.  

Edited February 29 by euphrasyne

[Necie]

10 minutes ago, euphrasyne said:

Aquafaba --chickpea water can even be turned into whipped cream with a close texture and flavor. 

I’d never heard of using it for whipped cream, but have heard of it used as a vegan alternative for mayonnaise. Any legume liquor will work, but have heard that the lighter ones have a much closer flavor.

[euphrasyne]

Chickpea aquafaba makes an excellent delicate textured whipped cream.  add vanilla or almond extract for the best result.  Also, tofu can be made from any bean and chickpeas and lentils each make really good 'tofu.'  As whipped cream, it only stays structurally sound for a few hours, so make it just before using.  It can take awhile (7-10m) to whip up, so use a wire beater in a stand mixer for best results.

 

In general the recipe is:

3/4c liquid from chickpeas (home canned is fine.)  If cooking liquid, reduce it by half before measuring. It should be thick and slimy.

1/4 t or more as needed cream of tarter

2/3c powdered sugar

1 T almond extract or vanilla

2 T oil* optional

Beat liquid until foamy.  Add tarter, beat to peaks, add sugar and extract.  Beat until desired consistency.  Beat in oil for 'creaminess."

Edited February 29 by euphrasyne

[Ambergris]

Pureed chickpeas are used for yogurt here.  I tried to make aquafaba merengue, but it kept falling flat/melting.

[euphrasyne]

Don't cook the aquafaba.   It does better raw, whip it longer or add more cream of tarter.  Don't skip the cream of tarter it is what gives it structure similar to an egg meringue.  I used to make it several times a week when I lived in MS.  You may need to cook the liquid to reduce it then cool it thoroughly.   Colder whips better and it really does need to have a slightly slimy consistency.  

Edited February 29 by euphrasyne

[Littlesister]

Don't think I would want to try the Tyndallization method of preserving my food. I think I would rather stick with what I know works. 

Some interesting ideas for the chickpeas. Might have to give those a try. 

[themartianchick]

Violet used to post solid advice about food preservation on Mrs. S. I believe that she passed away a little while back, but her posts should still be searchable. She was a stickler for using all of the proper procedures and equipment, as she used to teach food preservation through her local extension office. 

[Littlesister]

I will have to try to find it. There is so much info on here that I miss a great deal of it. 

[Jeepers]

Thanks for the info Themartianchick. I knew Violet was a master canner. I donated lids to some of her classes she had for under privileged women. I didn't realize she had passed away.  

 

We could really rely on her canning expertise.